F2P and augs

This is my truth.

More hinderance than enticement. Taking away "prestige" augs I bought and earned just stinks.

Legacy content is legacy. If the content is legacy, all it's gear should lose "prestige" flags.

I'm good thanks. There is no advice that makes an A5 tank or healer merc sufficient at the higher levels. Heck, people complain about the J5's as it is in EoK and beyond, but certainly the A5's must be fine.

Whatever your problem is with a recently returned player arguing monetization techniques, you should get over it. You can either make and defend a point, or you can't. I play a variety of games, some modern, some old. The topic of monetization is interesting to me, and the future of Everquest is important to me, so I decided to comment. I don't have a dog in this F2P/Prestige/Aug fight.

When I made my alt account Shaman, I leveled him from 1 myself, no Heroic. When I hit 50ish I subbed the account, because the tank merc was starting to suck, and of course auto-grant. This isn't my first rodeo, I've tried to run F2P at times in the past, it was always bad. So I sub when I want to play, no big deal. I've also run an A5 tank side by side with a J1 tank before and you can literally see the difference in real time. And that was under level 50. For my purposes, F2P is useless above 50, for others maybe not, but that's not my job to argue.

I want DPG to keep this game going as long as they can. I think to do that they have to have as many income streams as they can. It's 2021, F2P models are here for now, maybe forever. They can try to optimize their implementation, or not, but avoiding it because some old players think that's communism, well that's just dumb.

FYI, in the future, if you want to agree to disagree, just say you disagree, don't try to pretend that person is not worth arguing with.

OK, now what about

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=36183

Deepsky Stone

MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE PRESTIGE AUGMENTATION
Augmentation type: 4 8
Slot: RANGE PRIMARY SECONDARY
Required level of 70.
Effect: Life Sap II (Combat, Casting Time: Instant)
WT: 0.0 Size: TINY
Class: ALL
Race: ALL


It's DoN content.

Prestige though because devs know it's popular and want to coerce. It's a barrier to returning players and is a dumb choice to keep OLD augs prestige locked to stealth shade and shame people into "ponying up" for a sub, even though this loyal player played and paid for over a decade.

It's a game. This is taking it waaaay too seriously.

and is

a barrier to returning players.

needlessly.

Nobody asked for current top tier anything.

I think the OP asked about legacy augs or a merchant to sell augs to help players transit to current live meta.

1. I have repeated my points and position in some 10+ posts. I like the current subscription model. I don't want unintended consequences or trade-offs (loot boxes, ads, shutting off F2P from current content).

2. Despite several opportunities, you have offered no tangible plan but a nebulous, broad point to optimize F2P revenue with the exception of cosmetics (which, honestly, will not override the monetization of prestige-only items).

3. You are conflating specific problems with your gameplay as a general critique of subscription features.

4. It is presumptuous for a returned player of 1 month in EoK/RoS to make these kind of assessments. You have no idea of the itemization scheme in ToV and CoV (non-prestige T1 CoV group > prestige T2 ToV group, tradable ToV T1 gear).

lol aight, I'll bite.

1) (loot boxes, ads, shutting off F2P from current content).

a slippery slope fallacy that has nothing to do with why legacy, did I say legacy? augs not only should not be prestige, but should be available up to level 110 and all legacy (3 or more expansion old)

2) More players reaching end game engenders more subs than frustrating returning players into camping out rather than deal with 80% of their gear useless, even though they earned it.

YOU have made no direct correlation anywhere to the OP other than you don't like it and assume people are asking for raid augs or something. Seriously, DoN era augs should just be on the merchant unlocked and no prestige BS.

3) agreed with OP, F2P should be able to use any augs and gear under max level / 3 expansions back.

ALL of the express catch up devices introduced were on that same page.

4) civility? lol Losing your temper or something? It's presumtuous to assume people were asking for OMGORZ curent augs. I think we were more about asking that augs not be a barrier to making it to current meta, The stark and exponential difficulty of content, without proper gear. Meanwhile level 70 augs are prestige. When I say so, you reply that I'm somehow asking for "as good as live" anything.

Nobody asked for that, you just like to say it as a scare tactic.

I am glad that you have moved away from the "subs=/=profitability" position to augments only when I called you out.

The devs probably don't have the time or resources - to be taken away from paying customers - to go back several expansions to manually remove (literally, hand-fix) the prestige tag from the game's vast item database.

Speaking from the viewpoint of someone who runs a 2 subscribe and 4 FTP group.

It would be nice every once and a while to have a drop or quest aug like TBS skeletal Parrot that isn't prestige.

However, I would never expect the team to spend any time re-cataloging old content.

The heroics from TBM vendor augs are still pretty valid, but at some point it would be nice for a Tier 1 non-prestige heroic set to replace them.

#1 Fair enough, I agree with this point

#2 I'm not proposing a plan, I'm pointing out a potential opportunity. Maybe the F2P model that was designed when F2P concepts were in their infancy is not serving DPG the way it could. Maybe F2P could serve as a vehicle to increase marketplace sales. Maybe certain current restrictions are impeding that. Maybe it's not a good idea at all, I'm just spit-balling here.

#3 I have no problems with my gameplay. Apprentice mercs suck somewhere past 50. If you want to argue they don't, then make the argument, don't attack my ability to play the game.

#4 It is presumptuous for a person who started in 2001 to question a person who started in 1999. See how stupid that sounds? I wouldn't question your history and you shouldn't question mine. Has F2P changed in the last 3 years? Has anything we've discussed about old content in this game changed? Are J5 mercs suddenly amazing in CoV and ToV, when they were paste in RoS? Did A5 mercs suddenly catch up to and surpass J5 mercs, rendering new content trivial?

Get over yourself man, you don't know me, I don't know you. I'm not assuming you are clueless and you shouldn't assume I am either. You seemed to be arguing genuinely until you realized some of us in this thread were recent returnees. That observation didn't give you a leg up or allow you to win the thread, it just resulted in you being arrogant instead of making a real argument.

For the sake of civility you should argue your case, or not. If somebody else who has been playing the last few years comes along and agrees with me, what would your argument be then? Better to just make that argument now so we can get on with the discussion. Or let it die, I don't care. I've stated my points clearly enough.

lol you didn'y call out anything and people who continue to play through F2P to max level are much more likely to sub than someone who logged in, say all their gear now useless and logged out.

It seems like you are the dude who doesn't want to go do it or something.

Subs, in fact, do not equal profitability, but one CAN market to a subbed player or account, MUCH better if they didn't log out in frustration and go play something else. Some time ago, WoW shifted much of it's game design toward... MAU and DAU manipulation, staggered mission timers (oh look, just like overseer timers) in recognition that engagement is king in advertising and marketability. it's why Youtube even tracks cursor hover time.

As for the devs, they have to legacy unlock old expansions anyway, right? That should include the augs.

How exactly would you increase marketplace sales? Of what? How would it be a reliable, consistent revenue stream? We know the answer: loot boxes. You are kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

When someone comes along and says F2P and A5 mercs are not tolerable above level 50 (yes, level 50), yet the majority of players can run F2P chars through to casual current content with few problems, how do you expect people like me to respond?

How am I arrogant when I want to maintain the game as it currently stands? You are the one who wants to remake the game's design and the game's revenue model. You have the burden to prove that your idea is better (and not echo your specific gameplay problems).

What's the point in continuing? It's an internet debate...

(I am going to stop responding as I think it is cool to see new and returning players but not worth making our collective experience unpleasant).

and still zero correlation or explanation or justification why DoN era augs NEED to be prestige as it will hurt the bottom line. other than you don't want and will vehemently argue against it.

Remeber the OP?

Here's part of it:

I realize f2p isn't big on any priority list, but 4 expacs back doesn't seem an unreasonable request

But now my question is, why are you so violently against that?

I smell a rat, like a dev who doesn't want to do it or something. Bordering on angry and VERY passive aggressive and condescending.

To what end deny a level 70 aug? To claim such augs are a game profitability breaker? The bottom line? Nay, I don't think that's the game afoot.

How is a level 70, or any other 4 expansion old aug any of this?

It's not to do with loot boxes, you are trying to tie unlocking legacy augs to loot boxes why?

and yes, your tone and rhetoric are all about condescension and arrogance, like you're an insider schooling people on marketabiliy or something.

I realize f2p isn't big on any priority list, but 4 expacs back doesn't seem an unreasonable request

I realize f2p isn't big on any priority list, but 4 expacs back doesn't seem an unreasonable request

I realize f2p isn't big on any priority list, but 4 expacs back doesn't seem an unreasonable request

I realize f2p isn't big on any priority list, but 4 expacs back doesn't seem an unreasonable request

is NONE of which you keep claiming.

This thread has devolved. I'm out.

Look at the other side of things.

So we give F2P all these goodies you want to give them.

So now what is the motivation to start subscribing?

Out of the 16 perks for paid accounts that I listed below there are only maybe 6 that might inspire others to subscribe.


General chat? YES
Able to do guild halls? Maybe
More character slots? F2P can get those thru loyalty or in marketplace
Rank II spells? F2P can get those thru loyalty or in marketplace
Unlimited AA You can get around this by paying for one month and auto grant
In game email Yeah, they're gonna flock to sign up with this one
Higher loyalty token award Maybe but it gets old fast and not enough goodies to buy
Ability to buy alternate
currency with loyalty merchant? Maybe
J5 Merc YES
Bazaar YES
Progression Servers YES
Extra shared bank slots OK -
Stop pop up ads YES
Prestige Do they even know when they start the game what this is about?
Discount in marketplace Maybe
Monthly $5 YES

So the reasons to subscribe are getting fewer and fewer.

What would you offer someone to subscribe? 1 or 2 of the above list is not going to cut it. You have to dangle that carrot.

How exactly would you increase marketplace sales? Of what? How would it be a reliable, consistent revenue stream? We know the answer: loot boxes. You are kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

1) remove prestige on anything, level caps already block F2P in anything but basics.

2) Take the hint that all the catch up mechanics are in game to help players get to current meta and recognize that players NOT at current meta are far less likely to "poney up" (sic) for a subscription, but may still buy things from the marketplace.

3) stop shell gaming LoN drops and just make them all available. The assets are all already in game. SELL them.

4) hey, Ragefire is about to hit HoT, are ALL the placeables EQ has on sale? Ripe for marketing right there.

as an aside. Any normal person who starts new in EQ or returns to a new account, generally will free to play for a while until they hit the AA wall of uselessness and the point where merc limitations matter much more.

If that divide isn't bridged, player will never buy a new expansion and probably won't continue to sub if they cannot attain.

So we give F2P all these goodies you want to give them.

So now what is the motivation to start subscribing?

Out of the 16 perks for paid accounts that I listed below there are only maybe 6 that might inspire others to subscribe.


General chat? YES
(Connections to players an server in general are a good idea)

Able to do guild halls? Maybe (I'm good with anyone being able to buy and place their own GH / plot /building a personal army and village, more sales are good.)

More character slots? F2P can get those thru loyalty or in marketplace
(Loyalty is blocked, even lapsed accounts with accrued crown cannot buy many of the things, like currencies or perfected unattuners, or anchors. Also base 8 character slots still get hidden, often taking guild halls and such with them and making even unpacking an account infreasible without hving to roll free to play accounts to have enough inventory space to even unpack., less than friendly and even less than intuitive.)

Rank II spells? F2P can get those thru loyalty or in marketplace
(mercs get them by default, paying humans have to farm or buy them. Someone tell me where the merc store is. ask any frustrated cleric who can't find a group)

Unlimited AA You can get around this by paying for one month and auto grant
(autogrant doesn't grant all and misses a lot of relevant AAs)

In game email Yeah, they're gonna flock to sign up with this one
( F2P mail is a bad idea, chat channels players can be ignored Blocking F2P from chat derails friendships and connections, which are reasons to sub up)
.
Higher loyalty token award Maybe but it gets old fast and not enough goodies to buy ( I would offer a discount on preorder of next expansion if you've been subbed a minimum of 6 of the past 12 months at time of purchase to help sell through and incentivize leveling a F2P)

Ability to buy alternate currency with loyalty merchant? Maybe (legacy anything should be legacy on live servers, currencies should just have a PP exchange rate as there is already a crown to currencies relative value set on Loyalty Merchant anyway. just add PP exchange for legacy exoansion bux. The rate can be made inferior if one isn't factioned. Factioning can save PP.
The loyalty was earned, let them spend it on anything the merchant has. Locking the helpful ones isn't incentive, it's passive aggressive coercion to do so, which is not incentive, it's just passive aggressive)

J5 Merc YES (J5 merc should be allowed to any character who does the quest, they earned it like anyone else. Taking away what people ALREADY OWN, like j5 merc flags, shold ALWAYS remain off limits.)

Bazaar YES (more people selling and buying is good for server economy)

Progression Servers
(NO, MANY MANY people are on TLPs specifically to avoid F2P players, this would be betraying them)

Extra shared bank slots OK -(easier to sell those placeables and bags if people have the slots)

Stop pop up ads YES(These are pure insecurity and obnoxious, especially during combat also passive aggressive marketing and also how many thousands of uselss server connections a day as if players didn't already know. This isn't information, it's nagware!, so so 1982)

Prestige Do they even know when they start the game what this is about?(Nope, they find out when they lapse though! Remove presitge entirely and use legacy flagging and level cap restriction for F2P)

Discount in marketplace Maybe
(Sell to everyone, you have them online and in the store. letting them leave without buyng something is the fail, not the offering sales)

Monthly DPCx5 YES (This should ONLY be part of paid subs a free heroic toon every 7 months, or a free mount, etc is NOT coercive, it IS incentive in fact I cycled through numerous accts 1 at a time for 7 months at a time to get heroic backup buffers, like a heroic shammy to buff my shaman's alts, that operation resulted in 70 paid months total just for the heroics.)

So the reasons to subscribe are getting fewer and fewer.
(you missed some very valid reasons)
Playing with friends
raiding,
meeting current requirements to join a raid guild
the usefulness of AAs,
actually reaching max F2P and being willing to pay for an expansion now that we can play in it, and just because it's a good game worth supporting.

Oh, and content, did anyone mention content being the incentive?

EQ has that, in spades.

Myself personally, I wold have re-subbed the other 4 accounts if it weren't for the utter inventory and gear nightmare and would have bought mounts and such as we're playing on a different server, partly due to how intimidating it is to sort 10 accounts, 14 characters per account worth of useless gear, inaccessible solutions because 8 characters are hidden, and loathe to blow a month of sub time JUST to deal with that, so leave them lapsed and offline.

What would you offer someone to subscribe? 1 or 2 of the above list is not going to cut it. You have to dangle that carrot.


"all these goodies you want to give them"


legacy augs.

That was all the OP asked about.

OLD legacy augs should legacy.

F2P with the purchase of ToV gets you to lvl 115 today. With non-Prestige armor / augs / weapons and a few smartly purchased months of AA unlocks, you can easily be 250k-300k HP characters. Mobs hit for 5k if your lucky and 30k+ a lot. A 125 hp Lifetap isn't going to save you ... ever, even if your subbed with 50k AA's and 450k hps. Aggro aug? There are far better augs for that. Often with RNG you can mash the taunt button more often that that will proc, you cant rely on procs ever.

Deepsky Stone is irrelevant after x amount of expansions. Yes, your time you spent to get it was useful ... until it wasn't.

The level 75 SK who has it equipped doesn't log in anymore because all his gear is prestige and useless. Guaranteed to never buy anything offline. Maybe after anniversary we'll have time and by then a few Krono (if we could just play the toons, we'd farm for Krono and DPG would get the money. as it is, Prestige items at level 70 and inability to buy bags of plat to pay escrow and even unpack our stuff leaves us cornered. = barrier to reentry.

Also, someone who is not yet max level isn't likely buying a new expansion until they get there. Getting there faster was what allllll the catch up mechanics introduced over 20 years have been for.

I wonder if at any time you might realize that not everyone returns to or is currentlly playing max level. Once again OP (and I) think legacy augs should be legacy and or available for purchase to help players attain relevance. Nobody asked about CURRENT tiered augs or handouts, or marketing lessons, good or bad.

I can't tell you exactly or else when DBG steals my idea I won't get rich...

Seriously though, I was simply recognizing that the initial purpose of F2P in MMORPGs was to get people to try them out, like a demo, but that F2P models have changed since then. Given that, revisiting the purpose of EQ's F2P option might give them some ideas of ways they could use F2P to promote sales in the marketplace. That's it, that's all I'm saying.

You have this somewhat irrational fear of change, and I get it to some degree, loot boxes suck. But I trust the team more than that. And it's possible it's not even a good idea, but it's just an idea.

IDK, say that hasn't been your experience? Give some examples that refute the statement? And that's not actually what I said. My comments were specifically about A5 (but A1-4 apply too) tank and healer mercs being terrible somewhere after 50. I don't remember the exact level, but they start to fall off somewhere around then. By the time you hit House of Thule they are useless for sure.

To be fair, back when I was using them I didn't know about blocking spells or anything like that, but you can't block promised heals on your tank merc anyway so it doesn't matter.

You are arrogant when you dismiss my argument because I've been back for a month, as if that has anything to do with anything. I've played this game for a long fricking time, I'm sure you have too, we should be able to have a discussion without stuff like this.

And furthermore, I don't want to remake the game's design, I just made a suggestion that they can take or leave. I have no burden to prove anything, it was just an idea I typed into a message board.