F2P and augs

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Scroterly, Mar 7, 2021.

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  1. KrakenReality Augur

    People spend money, even if the games are free.

    https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/18/f...tertainment-world-with-88-billion-in-revenue/


    MMOGs require enough "critical mass" of players to remain viable. FTP gets more people in the door, and the closer those FTP members are to All-Access members the higher, the retention and conversion rates.

    WoW, ESO, FFXIV, and other titles are $15/month and that comparison makes EQ looks expensive. There are also thousands upon thousands of other games that do not require a recurring subscription that are competition.
    Joules_Bianchi likes this.
  2. Gherig Addicted since Aug 1st, 1998

    Every game your using as an example has a Free 2 Play model VASTLY reduced to EQ1 and EQ2's models, but has many, many more paid subscriptions then EQ. EQ has the most generous Free to Play restrictions of a AAA subscription based game on the market, hands down. Those mentioned titles have not lost players due to low Free 2 Play options, if anything they maintain higher sub counts because F2P is not so generous.

    Now Daybreak has one of the MOST expensive "Cash Shops" in the industry also. Similar items from game to game are quite a bit more expensive in EQ1/2 then their counterparts.

    A better argument could be made that re-evaluating the cost of DBC items, which would likely generate more sales, not less and easily offset the money lost by cost reductions recouped by greater sales made from that service.

    McDonald's did not become the most successful and profitable fast food restaurant by selling 1 Million cheeseburgers that cost $9 each ... they became king of the market buy selling billions of cheeseburgers at $2 ... more people line up at McD's then Five Guys.
    Zynt and CatsPaws like this.
  3. Gherig Addicted since Aug 1st, 1998

    A good example of the difference in Cash Shop prices from game to game. I will never spend $40-$50 in Real Life money for a bigger slot bag in EQ from the shop. Its grossly overpriced and frankly tragic that it is. But I have purchased almost every single cash shop offering Blizzard has for my WoW account because most of them cost $10-$25 max.

    Making adjustments to those prices and offering more appealing items, at much lower prices ... will almost always result in greater overall sales then before the change returning more profit not less because you now have more people willing to buy that product.
  4. KrakenReality Augur


    I would disagree GW2 and ESO are pretty comparable and GW2 would be considered more generous.

    Cash shop is pretty much on par with the industry, if not a bit below industry average. It's why the new cash shop items go directly into loot crates.

    Your McDonald's comparison doesn't really work, and you'd be arguing more in favor of the FTP model. Get as many people in the door as possible with "loss" leaders and upsell a separate product, for example cheeseburger and a drink.
  5. Joules_Bianchi A certain gnome

    Television was a free to play model and I hear it made a few people some money from it's customer base.

    Subscription =/= profitability.

    Most game companies judge by User Engagement metrics these days.

    If people don't play characters AND LIKE THOSE CHARACTERS, they don't play, which represents a near zero marketability nexus.
  6. Joules_Bianchi A certain gnome

    A simple max level cap and expansion entry model would be enough. I personally know quite a few people who maxed themselves out as F2P SO THE NEW EXPANSION WAS WORTH BUYING ON THE ACCOUNT

    Why on Norrath would anyone want to barrier that model over hot zone augs and want to keep a returning player down and irrelevant as long as possible?
  7. Gherig Addicted since Aug 1st, 1998

    You can not use GW2 as a comparison -- it is Buy to Play. Not even close to the same business model so its moot to include it.
  8. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    I wonder how many are actually buying extra DBC, compared to those who just save up with the free 500 DBC each month?

    I never thought of DBC = $, as some of you do. I compare them to "loyalty crowns" instead. If I could decline the DBC and get a reduced subscription-rate instead I would do that, but I can't.
    Therefore DBC != $. For DBC = $ to hold any meaning there needs to a possible 2-way conversion imho...
  9. Gherig Addicted since Aug 1st, 1998

    Long ago you used to be able to use Station Cash for Expansion and subs. But there were IRS issues with that, sales tax issues state by state and other legal issues in other countries about Station Cash, its is currency when purchased or currency when redeemed in regards to income for the company and taxation. Could it be used as gross income when purchased or did it have to be redeemed to claim it as actual income? It was very complicated.

    So in the end Sony took the easier way out and removed the ability to use Station cash for those purchases.

    Around that time SOE started giving out 500 Station Cash as a All Access benefit too, so if not for that taxation issue, that probably newer would have happened if you could still use it to buy the actual game and game time.
    Jumbur likes this.
  10. Benito EQ player since 2001.

    The last time television was "free" was in the 1990s.

    Have you seen the landscape of television today?

    You are either $100+ monthly to digital or satellite cable providers or you have to deal with monthly fees from dozens of content providers (i.e. Netflix, Hulu, Disney+, Apple TV, Discovery+).

    The current television revenue models decisively refutes your argument and actually lends credence to the effectiveness of subscriptions.
  11. Benito EQ player since 2001.

    Are some people really still clamoring for a more generous F2P model?

    It is requiring quite the mental gymnastics with a rather abstract "critical mass/tipping point" with zero details on monetization once that threshold is reached.

    I believe most players would prefer subscriptions over "hey, this game is free but we will nickel-and-dime you on every feature" (e.g. way more loot boxes, P2W through loot boxes, DLC packs, marketplace potions required to do anything).

    I would prefer slight discounts on bulk membership or expansion purchases than fundamentally changing the already-generous F2P model and running the game into the ground.
    Duder likes this.
  12. Gherig Addicted since Aug 1st, 1998

    I currently pay for Cable - Netflix - Amazon Prime - Disney+ and now HBO Max. And I still dont feel I get my moneys worth from any of them, but without just one of them my choices of entertainment is greatly reduced.

    TV is not in any way free. They don't even offer an analog signal anymore, you need to buy additional equipment just to get "Normal free TV" now. No more bending a clothes hanger for a makeshift antenna to get ABC,CBS, NBC,FOX and PBS lol.
  13. CatsPaws No response to your post cause your on ignore

    Taxation killed it? I thought it was the massive error when they allowed the marketplace discount to apply to DBC. So tons of players bought up a ton of DBC and then turned around and bought expansions and subscriptions. People were stocking up on 1/3 price SC, then buying 3 years of sub with SC that cost the price of 1 year. They were sitting on the cheap SC and buying expansions for 1/3 the list price.

    That was prior to 2015.

    I noticed the internet tax about 2-3 years ago.
  14. Joules_Bianchi A certain gnome

    so NBC went out of business did it?

    Youtube is free too I think?

    etc.

    Point being

    sub =/= profitability.

    Engagement however is where it's at.

    Aside from web and a Roku , we actually have 2 different types of Leaf antennae. There are still tons of free broadcast models out there.

    Prime is a thing too, we make and watch streams, some of which carry ads, make money and are also free to view.

    Just because you can pay a cable sub doesn't make free to air any less free to air.

    Cable isn't the content, it is one manner of content delivery.
  15. CatsPaws No response to your post cause your on ignore

    I have a 25 year old pair of rabbit ears. I get all those stations free and at least 3 sub channels of each one and many spanish channels. I live in the middle of nowhere - not near any stations.

    Most tv's have the digital box necessary for digital signals built into them now.

    I pay 0 for local and 0 for streaming all the latest stuff I want to watch.
    Joules_Bianchi likes this.
  16. Joules_Bianchi A certain gnome

    and about taxation. Several places made fiat currencies a taxable entity, so game companies couldn't just GIVE them to you and force a tax burden, so those exchanges bacame [CLAIM] items rather than static given awards. That was when the claim button spawned for the 500 freebie Station / DBcash.
  17. Gherig Addicted since Aug 1st, 1998

    Taxation was also part of it also, not internet tax but actual corporate taxes on Station Cash. Was it real, tangible income when sold or when redeemed and when could SOE take it as a charge off or an income. Also if it was never redeemed, was it lost income? It was complicated but part of the reason the changes where made, along with the things you mentioned also. It was just one big "Cluster you know what" back then.
  18. Benito EQ player since 2001.

    You may have heard the phrase: there is no such thing as a free lunch.

    If you think some providers are free, they are gathering your data and force feeding you ads.

    EverQuest, Daybreak, and EG7 are not public resources or non-profits. They are businesses.

    How do you expect them to monetize the game after expanding F2P or eliminating subs? Loot boxes, P2W (Pay-to-Win), P2W loot boxes, DLC packs on top of expansions, marketplace potions required to do anything?

    If you want a "free" game, there are a few iterations of EQ as e-m-u-la-t-o-r-s. But, note, these emus are free riders (on the back of other people's work) and offer limited to no development. I've even been told that they can monitor your computer activity.
  19. Gherig Addicted since Aug 1st, 1998

    Key word is now, wasn't the case at first. The industry only included those tools in new TV's because the analog signal was changed and older TV's lost access and people complained.
  20. Gherig Addicted since Aug 1st, 1998

    Not anymore, its now monetized with forced commercials unless you pay for its new subscription service also.

    If you want an EQ comparison, Forced Commercials on YouTube are like a Prestige tag. If you don't want to be locked behind that restriction you have to pay for a sub
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