Why do you think several have told you what the Dev team has asked from those complaining about Zek's current status. I guess were just pulling out of our backside right?? See the current Dev team had absolutely asked the PvP players to show a demand for EQ PvP to justify their time being spent to modify it. Yet you all keep telling them to stuff it and refuse to try and achieve the population they need to tell the higher ups its viable and worth the time. Stop posting BS numbers like 90% of the PvP players because those numbers are a tiny fraction of EQ players when looking at the whole picture. Stats are not your friend in this case. I get it your passionate about it, but you need to find a way to achieve what the Dev team needs to help you all out. Ignorance and insults isn't going to get the desired outcome.
Fixing PvP is not simple. So now you are back in the same loop...fix it and they will come...come and we may fix it. To improve Zek in any meaningful way...they need to fix what is broken with PvP, otherwise you already have every other server as options to play EQ. Once PvP is off the table, there is nothing more a dev needs to do concerning only Zek while all other development still pertains to it. You cannot actually argue that Zek gets zero development time, PvP, sure. PvP players have to grasp that fixing PvP is a salvage operation as it sits today. How and why it got there is mostly irrelevant to it being in its current state. To convince the devs to launch a salvage operation, the value in doing so must be made obvious. The current sales pitch from raiding guilds on Zek just highlights the fact that PvP in EQ is a very niche feature. The same message comes through loud and clear when PvP TLP is discussed.
“Ascending Dawn is a raiding guild, and we're still here on ZeK (Raiding). ...smaller community then other servers...currently have over 80 members...your on ZeK, doesn't mean you have to PvP or required to PVP. We have plenty Why omit anything? I clearly stated doesnt mean you have to PvP or required to PvP. Doesn't say you CAN'T PvP. This was clearly added to show, that just because its a PvP server, doesn't mean we dont exp, group raid and all the thing you guys do on the blue server. The fact that some players dont PvP that much, simply because the PvP isn't fixed. We're asking that they fix it because, they broke it in the first place, with the changes they made to the server. Implementing a unless PvP Board, incurring ridicules' PvP death effects (that should have been removed long ago), using system messages for PvP deaths, and having PvP points which are worthless. Its a favored system biased over classes that can't kill over classes that can. And to make matter's worst they already stepped in and nerfed abilities and skills from some classes while overpowering other classes, further unbalancing it. Gear and character development use to weigh in on PvP, but they have taken that away as well. This is NOT how the PvP server was implemented in the beginning. No character spells, melee, abilities or items were ever nerfed from PvP. Gear actually MADE a huge difference, which encouraged players to go develop their characters, and raid for better gear. So now a brand new undeveloped, ungeared character can just go one shot a fully raid gear character. How is that fixing our server, we aren't the ones that made these changes to our server. Before there were reasons why we actually PvP. Like for camps deputes, zones, and sometimes guild wars. Doesn't mean that's all we did was run around and PvP. We actually had a community to handle our PvP arguments ourselves, it was actually quite fun. Now we just being turning into a 1 person shooter game and when we ask them to undo or fix what they broke, we getting heat for it? We just asking that they fix something they already broke in the first place, OR just leave us as a normal server, with normal server rules, and let that characters have the ability to PvP (like it was in the beginning) without all your nerfs, point system, death effects, system messages. What is so hard about that? We are paying customers on ZeK, so why cant we ask them to fix something they broke in the first place? For you guys that hate our PvP server, fine stay on your blue server. But we're paying customers also, and we have a right to ask them to fix something that isn't working right. You don't get to decide what you want is more important then someone else.
True, but it doesn't keep you from getting PvP'd. There is no switch that makes you immune to griefers and the like just because you don't feel like PvPing on a PvP server.
this thread is so juicy, such contradictory statements being made. Heads I win, tails you lose! 1. ^^^^myshadow Quoting Yueyenie about his guild's PvE oriented players not mattering^^^^ 2. ^^^^Someone else explaining that dev has gotten as much development time as the other servers due to the PvE content available^^^^ *oh wait, no, that's the same exact person contradicting themselves 3. ****This thread, discussing how PvP is broken and ruins the PVE experience on the server(ruining all content for everyone on the server) when multiple classes can kill entire groups, boxed alts, etc etc etc in mere seconds**** Everyone on Zek thinking "Tails I lost, heads they won, again!" so if the thread is attempting to offer ideas of how to fix Zek to improve the server for everyone on it, why isn't anyone participating in the conversation? If the problem for you is the PvP aspect needing some attention, when that is the problem on Zek ruining the server for everyone, you are choosing not to work together on how to fix that with any ideas at all, while the ones suggested are done so with the intention of hopefully taking as little dev time as possible, because you don't want to see the devs work on the problem at all? What? You've been given preferential treatment forever and your interests are being strongly considered in the few ideas put forth earlier in this thread but you still choose to not offer any help at all. Sound familiar? It's pretty obvious when people don't care. You say irrelevant why? Weren't you taught in 4th grade English class that the most important questions to ask are Who What How When Where and Why? I'm pretty sure they teach that in America. Could you atleast put forth a good argument? You say the same thing every year. Exact same talking points. New ideas, suggestions, thoughts on how to fix things on these forums, think about it, discuss, add to it? Nope. Don't participate in that conversation, just say the same thing year after year after year after year after decade after decade. We've already read all this stuff last year, and the year before that, and the...oh complete silence for 3 years.... and the year before that and the year before that. It get's old. But to you, it's you that are hearing the same thing. Completely new ideas, some insight. Nope, doesn't matter to you. Covid. Small expansion. Your new content could be threatened. We've heard all that before. We can read an old thread to read that again. There's things that could increase population. There's ideas that could incentivize PvP. There's stuff that could cause someone to try it for a short time. There's a lot of small things if all done in tandem could cause some improvements. The argument is that it isn't easy? We'd argue you are making it more difficult by not providing anything helpful. The argument is that the players still on Zek that have survived and struggled it out all these years in multiple failing guilds for over a decade should take the initiative to convince others to come here, then once they have enough people then approach the devs and beg? We'd argue that doesn't even make any sense cause it's not possible. The argument is that your steadfast denial of anything concerning Zek or PvP(as they go hand in hand) is solid and you speak for the devs! We'd argue that's just pathetic. They can speak for themselves. There is a dev tracker. We know how to read. We don't need you to tell us what they've said in the past while repeating what you've said. I know I know, some of you like to repeat yourself just as much as you like thanksgiving and christmas.
PvP is super busted. Nobody is disputing that. I was just noticing you were pointing out you have low population and not all of the low population care about PvP yet this is about fixing PvP. If it isn't, the solution is to move Zek players to one of the other servers. Heat is your interpretation, people are just raising the obvious point, "What is the value in fixing it?" So...the ask is still...fix PvP. The hard part is...resource allocation. Who said you cannot ask? The devs even responded, more than once. Other paying customers are just pointing it out along with other obvious facts around the situation and you do not like it. I am just one of those paying customers and I am certain my words do not factor into the business decisions of Daybreak nor do I expect any of my words factor into your decisions.
For my part, I understand you did not understand what I posted. This thread is in the phase of wrapping up in the same manner as all the others. In the end, you are asking a business to devote resources to something that has no obvious return while at the same time, taking resources from something that has proven returns. It does not get any simpler than that.
Argument verdict: Speculation I don't see any discussion, facts or analysis of how much time it would take to accomplish or even mention of the feasibility of anything suggested in this thread. Nevermind all the others over the years. You had me at hello! Where you immediately said goodbye! When I said I had a question You immediately said "not now" There's no discussion at all of any of the suggestions in this thread in the any of the terms you are using to deny. How much time, how hard would it be, how feasible, other ways it could be done. NOTHING. No one's even participating in anything that could help the situation whatsoever in any amount, angle, aspect or other. All I am reading is: NO, because because because because because because because. This is what it's been like for the eq PvP/Red/Zek community forever on these forums. You always have the same reasons, and say the exact same thing while providing no useful feedback suggestions or otherwise. Every time, every Zek or PvP forums post ever. Give me a minute to make a list of the suggestions in the previous replies, ignored by all so far mind you, and I'll get back to you! You do realize all the replies were all speculative in nature do you not? All that's here is the same rationale to do nothing, expect nothing, you deserve nothing cause of same old same old... i think I read someone agreeing about something somewhere... maybe... /yawn For the others, yes we read stuff, some of us read every forum post ever posted, yes we watch vids, yes we are on your servers, yes we are in your guilds, yes we are earning your dkp, yes we like PvE content also, yes we are using your bazaars, yes we like achievements also, yes we like crafting things also, yes we like gearing alts also, yes we miss doing these things on Zek and are sick of having to use the other servers for stuff cause noone cares about us and it's just significantly harder in many aspects yes, some of us have even stooped so far as to try other Everquest PvP service providers. #double ( /supersadpandaface
That sums it up fairly well. You are ignoring a lot of what does not need to be said. Discussing the individual points is moot if you are looking at how long has PvP been broken, how long the Zek population has been so low, how long has EQ been in a state of low resources, what else is broken and not getting fixed, etc. The analysis itself may even be a "the juice is not worth the squeeze situation". I get it, you want to portray it as others are speaking for the devs when they are really just pointing out what the devs have said in posts and action/inaction, PvP development is not on the radar and has not been for a very long time. The longer it goes on, the less likely it is to happen unless something happens to make it worthwhile, a catch-22 that we cannot just pretend does not make sense why it stands today.
i like this argument format. let me try you "Nothing you say matters, because we don't care" Love you too reply, me, Right cause you never did! oh wait, that leads to the question why should what you are saying when you are talking about what other people have said in the past matter? that's a complaining part isn't it? not being considered when you are saying what someone said in the past? someone said something new here but it doesn't matter at all, completely glossed over because it's coming from the same player base that's been ignored forever......... How can you outright say new suggestions ideas or a conversation not matter at all? I think it's because you are banking on something. Negligence doesn't last forever once some start voicing their opinions you know. You can only hope it's kept up for so long. This is a very strong argument you are making(You Think). How'd I do? leaving thinking How can you outright say new suggestions ideas or a new conversation not matter at all? It's the Zek server's fault. It's up to Zek players to fix it, "no!! we won't consider any of their ideas on how to fix things but we will demand they take responsibility!!!!" it's like that thing from above heads you win tails we lose, that's spot on your opinion is very clear. shouldn't have to read anything more from this one
I think the thing to focus on here is the low hanging fruit, what are the most simple suggestions that could be made that could have an impact on the biggest problems? We don't know the code, we don't know the directives the devs are following, we can't assume that the chicken vs. egg conundrum even matters. That being, would the devs be able to devote any serious time to PvP regardless of whether the players come now or could come later? All of that should be ignored, and the goal should be to give them something so easy to do that they just might try it. That's not just because this is PvP, but because that is what seems to work around here. Recently Bobbybick suggested some changes to epic bottlenecks that would make life easier for competing players on TLP servers. Without any heads up, one day those changes showed up on test. Now did they show up because TLP's are important to DPG? Maybe, but we really don't know. The thing we do know is that they were simple changes, adjustments to spawn timers and such. Again, we don't know the code, but some things are comparatively easier. Changes to single data fields are simpler than adding tables or revising code. The original suggestion in this thread was an across the board reduction in PvP damage by 40%. By comparison this suggestion is simpler than trying to balance all of the classes for PvP. Maybe it's not feasible, maybe the engine doesn't differentiate PvP damage from PvE damage in a place where this reduction could easily be implement. That doesn't matter. What matters is this suggestion gets at the core of the problem, and it's simpler than previous asks. It is good to get it out there to be seen. Maybe it won't work, but for somebody who's seen the code and knows the system it might trigger a better idea. I'm kind of in a similar situation as DPG, I support a decent chunk of old code that supports multiple systems, and I do it by myself. Sometimes somebody just asking me a question can lead to hours of research just to come up with an answer, and the solution would be days and weeks. But sometimes instead of telling what they want, they tell me what they need, and then I can use what I know about the system to find the simplest and most effective solution. All of this usually happens while I'm already busy working on something that's taking up all of my time. So I'm always thinking about ways to improve the system without completely re-writing things. In the end I doubt the devs have been given a directive to do no work on PvP mechanics, it's just likely so far down any priority list that it works out that way. But these two guilds are actively recruiting and promoting the PvP server. They likely know people who they've tried to get to come back, but have failed due to the state of PvP itself. Literally any positive change could be the catalyst that starts bringing people back. No promises need to be made. Any change that gets implemented shouldn't be an expectation of more changes being made. It should simply be understood that, if they find something easy to do that would help, that change would be appreciated. If it worked well enough that the Zek population suddenly spiked, then maybe that should be revisited, but really I think people would just be happy to move forward from the state PvP is in now.
I think thats not likely unless they take it on in a personal manner during their off time. You have to remember this is a business and as such decisions are made on revenue. The question is how to attract people to Zek and get them to stay then driving DP to assign resources accordingly. The real question is how much population is required, and your not going to get an exact answer. I would suspect getting the server population to register medium population for several months would be needed. Now how can Zek provide a server where people want to come and stay without harassment?
Just to be clear, I was saying the question may not matter. As in, getting people there now may not get them to do any serious work to PvP, just like promising it would bring in more players if they fix it first wouldn't either. I don't know that there is a population level that could overcome the work to dev availability ratio. That's why focusing on the simple stuff makes the most sense. I do feel it's important to have some kind of change that impacts which classes get used in PvP. The 40% damage adjustment would help with that, and if the percentage was wrong it could easily be adjusted. Maybe that's the only change that ever gets made, but maybe it's also enough. I'm just speculating. If it has a chance to bring in more subs then it should at least be considered.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. I'm saying that the devs may never spend even a minute on PvP related changes ever, regardless of current or potential future server population. That's my expectation, but it could also be wrong. That's why I'm trying to support simple suggestions that could have a big impact. If the devs could find a way to quickly implement the 40% damage reduction, and that was the only change they ever made, it would still be better than what Zek has now. Possibly enough to get it to grow. If it grows and brings in subs, but EQ has shrunk overall by then, well I wouldn't have further expectations. But if EQ grows over time, and Zek is part of that, then the calculation of what is worth their time, and how much time they have, could change.
Just as a reminder. Using alt accounts to evade forum suspensions is against the rules and will likely result in those accounts being suspended or banned.
I think the PvP folks have found a new home Forum Questing. I personally don't care about PvP, but if I did I'd probably be playing a twitch shooter instead of a RPG.
Well we are asking. But it seems like angry players are getting made that we here are asking. I haven't seen where the Devs responded to this thread, other then dreamweaver just above. And we have given a few simple suggestions on how to help improve it. Fourteen months ago, someone complained to DB about the Druid DS being overpowered in PvP. Two weeks later a Dev logged onto the server, asked a Druid to show him what we were talking about, and then next week they capped the damage on it. So people are rambling on this forum about the Devs not caring or having resources. They are just just talking to hear themselves talk here. The Devs can speak for themselves. The purpose of this tread is to bring to the attention some things that are wrong, and some suggestions to possible fixes that might help. Its called feedback, without feedback they can't help us. I'm sure if they are able to help in someway, they will. What we are not asking for are the opinions of players who don't like, want, or have anything to do with ZeK or PvP. We aren't asking for your interpretation of why you think (because you don't actually know) why we shouldn't play on a PvP server. That's fine just play on your blue servers and ignore this post, it isn't for you. Maybe these same people don't like the Progression servers either, but that doesn't mean other people don't like them. What we are asking for is some support for our EQ community that's willing to step up and support us. Whether it be by suggesting an idea, making a character on ZeK, or just supporting us in general. I'm from Rallos ZeK, and back in the day my guild Ascending Dawn with two other guilds attempted to kill the Sleeper. At 25% health, Sony had a Dev log on and despawn the Sleeper, because we were about to do something that wasn't ever suppose to be possible. When that happened, we had the support of our EQ community, even though they didn't play on a PvP server. With over 20 thousands emails and complaints coming in the next day, Sony decided to reset the event and we killed the Sleeper. Now, I'm not asking for 20 emails to go out to daybreak, but I am asking for a little bit of support from our community. Our EQ servers and population get smaller and smaller every year Does anyone really want to see another server go down whether you play on that server or not ? We are bringing back old retired members every week. Maybe not hundreds but we are bringing back quite a few players. Now, I can only speak here for myself, but I can assure you the majority of players on ZeK feel exactly the same way I do. Once the ZeK server goes down, I have no intentions of continuing to play EQ on a blue server. You don't have to understand why we play on a PvP server, maybe it makes no sense to you at all. But the more players we lose to our EQ community as a whole, the less likely this game will continue to run, get updates, and expansions. And that goes for all our servers.
