Hero's Fortitude&Vitality progression AA need a rework.

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Sokon, Apr 26, 2020.

  1. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer

    Wow, I fired up the peanut gallery. Keep those pearls of wisdom coming!
  2. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer

    I raid melee. I have raided on warrior, mage, bard, and cleric.

    Not here for a pissing match about which class is more work. Just accept the fact I agree with you and stop trying to pick a fight you will certainly lose.
  3. Vaeeldar Augur

    I find it a joke it’s simple as that. I’ve got rediculous amount of max level chars in raid and group gear. My 110 wizzes got mostly retired in TBL and 100% retired since then outside of port boxes.

    they can’t even begin to compete with top dps Rogue/Ber or almost top dps monk/necro (necro of course can float to the top in raid or big hp group game) or even my mage group. I also run 3 wizzes or did and even firing alliance they weren’t able to compete.

    I just don’t buy Wizzies hitting top 10 dps in any real raid.
  4. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer

    You don't have to buy it. I didn't ask you to buy it. I am stating something that occurred. Whether you believe it or not is of little consequence to me.

    Lucky crits, glyph, perfect group, etc, etc can all shake the DPS stack.

    I am not sure why I ruffled feathers with my comments. My acerbic wit, perhaps?

    Wizards absolutely need a boost. I have not argued against this. My opinion is that given someone who has no general utility vs someone who does, the one with no general utility should be higher DPS.
    Elyssanda likes this.
  5. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Balance between classes does not only consider DPS, it considers their range of skills, abilities & utilities.

    You can stand there & argue that your utilities have lost value, and even try to say that these extra things that your class has should not be considered in the DPS picture - but they are, you still have something another class doesn't and there is no getting away from that.
  6. Mookus Augur

    I melee with my wizard in a vain attempt to reclaim some dps. Don’t come selling me some bs that melee deserve to be better dps because they have to spend a second or two getting in front of a mob. After the 1 second it takes me to do the same crap melee bemoan doing, I have to take 3.5 seconds per cast without loss of line of sight or interruption or resist. During this time melee use the dev melee bias to win every parse I’ve seen for 6 years.
  7. Zunar Augur

    This is different depending on raid event.
    Try an event like velks in ToV and you will feel a great deal comfortable being able to dps from a safe distance and just as quickly forget about said melee who lack that option entirely and their frustration.
    Skuz likes this.
  8. Riotgears New Member

    Umm so.... the whole 70+ ranks of these AAs should never get any better?

    Resolution AA are fair, everyone benefits the same from increased regular stats

    But all the progression AAs only giving a significant amount of attack rating and virtually NOTHING ELSE?

    I mean with all of them, what is it? around 2 k hps and 2 k unconcious health, with over 400 k buffed health thats not even 1 % more life before death... But I can get a whopping 1560 more attack rating(78 x 20) on a base pool of less than 4 k with no buffs/prog aa.... That's a ton more.

    ya, these only benefit melee or maybe warriors, or someone swinging a weapon for sure. maybe atleast the higher ranks should give 50 or 75 hps per rank or something. Some spell damage or heal amount would be a great idea to add.

    Or they could even add a 4th prog aa and link it to all the other achieves to give casters/healers somehting, so if you had 50 ranks of vit/fort you'd auto gain 50 ranks of whatever the new one being added did.
    Petalonyx likes this.
  9. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer

    Agreed. We seem to have wandered a bit off-topic. I contributed to that. Sorry all.

    Heroic AA seem ripe for a rework. But since most CoV AA were a copy/paste, I would not hold out hope that this is even in the realm of possibility.
  10. Vaeeldar Augur

    I just feel like people mix and match modern game and 20 year old perceived perceptions. For example what is utility today? Ports/invis, escapes? Just about every class has it these days and utility has to be truly useful to actually matter.

    Honestly I rarely even use my port boxes anymore because it's as easy as binding in WW, you have guild hall anchors, AA to gate to lobby or home city - it just doesn't matter.

    Heck by definition I'd say rogues should be nerfed into oblivion because with SOS they have one of the top utilities left in game.

    Anyway upset, not at all - I didn't even particular like my wizzies but as somebody who plays a max level of every class right now but Ranger, Beast (working on that now) it just felt off to me. Wizzies are a truly broken class at the moment.
    I_Love_My_Bandwidth likes this.
  11. Elyssanda Bardbrain

    Nope wrong. 100%. I am the "caster" group bard, and our melee groups have bards, and I promise you on our casters are often top 10 if not top 5.. (Darn you Zvenn and your UBER DPS)
  12. Cadira Augur

    It's actually a simple mathematical fact that bards enhance melee groups more, it's not up for debate. My guess is your casters are insanely good or your melee aren't, probably the latter. From posts I have read earlier your guild's berserkers are adviced to use disconcerting instead of mangling disc on all raids so that kinda explains a few things.
    Elyssanda likes this.
  13. menown Augur

    I would like to see this simple math.
    Sancus, Astral64 and Cadira like this.
  14. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer

    This is absolutely correct Bards enhance melee more. Their songs and abilities lean toward melee. I would further unpack the Bard question to say that their caster aDPS is quite literally unmatched by any class in the game (same as melee). And even though Bards benefit melee more, Bards provide a large boost to casters. Whether a Bard belongs in a caster group in your raid is a leader/event question. Every raid has a different ability stack. Raid leader(s) plugging the right resources in the right places is what enables the rest of us plebs to do our best work on an event.
    Cadira likes this.
  15. Elyssanda Bardbrain

    I'm not gonna argue, I'm not a numbers person. I'm a, do MY job to the best of MY ability to enable my group to better do theirs person. I'm not in leadership, and don't want to be, I will help other bards or ask help from them (Just ask Jennre and Caio, I bug the heck out of them fairly regularly) in order to do my job better for my groups. We do run with 7-9 bards as our norm, and do have 2 caster groups. I normally get necros and mages, sometimes an enchanter. It's lovely to have a plethora of bards to talk shop with.
    I_Love_My_Bandwidth and Cadira like this.
  16. Cadira Augur

    Now that's the spirit! Bards def help everybody out a ton either way. I didn't mean anything offensively. Ps if you're making bard babies over there send a few to xegony.
    I_Love_My_Bandwidth likes this.
  17. Cadira Augur

    Raiding zerk Vs. Raid level combat dummy (approximately!)

    Auto attack with no bard support:

    Combat Dummy Azia in 916s, 105.6m @115317 | Total 105.6m@(115.3k in 916s)

    Auto attack with full bard support:

    Combat Dummy Azia in 694s, 144.4m @208128 | Total 144.4m@(208.1k in 694s)

    ~80% dps increase with aria, warmarch, aura, FE, epic, quicktime.

    Full burn and auto attack with no bard support:

    Combat Dummy Azia in 690s, 571.7m @828489 | Total 571.7m@(828.5k in 690s)

    Full burn with auto attack with full bard support:

    Combat Dummy Azia in 628s, 864.2m @1376187 | Total 864.2m@(1,376.2k in 628s)

    ~66% dps increase with the same bard stuffs.

    Casters:

    Tested some stuff with BL nukes/dots.

    Aria affects base damage of spells and adds after crit, making it very small increase to nukes/dots. If a nuke/dot hits for 100k base, but crits for 1000k, aria appears to add about 40% of the 100k, making the new hit 1040k. Aria doesn't stack with wizard's improved familiar same spa dps component right? So they don't hardly benefit from this song.

    FE appears to add very little damage to dots and nukes, about 5% total damage each. This % will decrease as more of your damage is amped by crit damage increases since it seems to only affect base damage.

    Between FE and Epic, you'll have an increased chance to crit which is great! But as casters, between raid adps like auspice, druid and enchanter adps, your own adps abilities, you're likely going to be at max crit rate for large portions of the event and these might not be noticeable (I don't know much about casters, I'm willing to concede the increased crit chance might be more valuable than I lead on here) but even if the 8 or 15% increase in crit rate is useful in full capacity, it's not going to increase your dps by a huge % compared to the gains melee get.

    Quicktime stacked on burns is some nice stuff, .5s being reduced from each cast. Whats the average nuke/dot cast time? 2s? probably more than that. But if it is 2s, plus the ~1.7s global cool down, that's about a 15% raw dps increase in being able to cast more nukes per minute. As the average cast time goes up, this number is reduced and I feel like 2s per cast is far from accurate in all reality and too low, but I don't know casters much. Tie in huge raid lag making your GCD longer and this bonus decreases more.

    Songs that increase raw damage of certain nuke types are virtually useless AMIRITE SCORNFIRE?!?! So not really worth mentioning.

    Wizards can gain a little ground with additional procs while FotG is going (was that reduced with proc nerf? idk).

    Compounding all these small bonuses casters get from bard, seems clear melee dps gains quite a bit more from bards.
    I_Love_My_Bandwidth likes this.
  18. Sancus Augur

    I suspect you're right that melee benefit more overall, and I appreciate you providing data on it. That said, I think there are a few factors that make it closer than this represents (this is a list I made while drinking my coffee, so apologies for the minimal organization):
    • Bard abilities have stacking issues for melee as well, and I'm almost certain Berserkers experience better scaling with them than any other class that would find itself in a melee group. The overall % gain for an otherwise fully supported melee group (with an empty slot) from a Bard's ADPS is going to be notably lower than those 66% or 80% figures.
    • Aria is applied post-crit for nukes, but it is applied pre-crit and is multiplicative with some other foci for DoTs. This matters a bit less for Necros who sometimes have other SPA 124 modifiers, but other DoT classes (Druids, Enchanters) that find themselves in caster groups benefit from it a lot.
    • Along with the above, DoTs scale better with crit rate because SPA 124 crits for them, and Druids and Enchanters have low DoT passive DoT crit rates/a lack of ways to enhance it.
    • The 27% critical chance increase from putting FE and Epic together does significantly increase average crit rate on longer events. On short events their benefit is minimal. The benefit of them is higher with crit damage modifiers and modifiers that can crit that will be present in fully supported caster groups but not on a dummy.
    • Mage swarm pets scale very well with Bard Aura, and Mage primary pets, if they ever actually swung, have higher real-world scaling with Bards than those Berserker numbers you gave (in % terms) if you do other things right.
    • As a small point, Improved Familiar is limited to Single target only, and Beam is (or should be) one of the most cast Wizard spells. In that sense, Aria is at least useful for that.
    • Fury of the Gods wasn't nerfed, nor were any bard procs affected, and Wizards (and casters in general) gain more from the proc rate modifier on Fierce Eye.
    • Quick Time is applied pre-haste, so its benefit is effectively smaller than you're describing (e.g. a 3s cast time spell becomes 1.25s, because the 0.5s reduction gets multiplied by 50%). That said, for spells that fall below the 3s threshold for 50% spell haste (a good portion of the spells Mages cast), the benefit is higher.
    I_Love_My_Bandwidth and Cadira like this.
  19. Sokon Augur

    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

    You guys are talking about Bards,
    because...
    like the progression AA's they do little else but give attack rating!?!?!?!?!

    Got it.

    Update(NEW!): Hero's Fortitude&Vitality progression AA AND BARDS need a rework.

    There, your replies are relevant now.
  20. I_Love_My_Bandwidth Mercslayer

    The conversation took an unexpected turn.

    Thanks for taking the time to set us straight.

    Rework HF and HV? No. I would rather get more content than rework at 10 year old system.