please consider VT key revamp

I mean the server is bigger than its top guild. On Agnarr for example lots of guilds were still working on their Emperor Keys and VT shards 2 weeks into the expansion. Some guilds didn't get into VT until the 2nd month of Luclin. The simple reality is you are playing a TLP server which has as its stated goal, to provide you with a rough approximation of doing this content back when it was "in era." Keying not only was a fundamental part of EQ raiding in 2001, it remained so off and on all the way up until Burning Lands (the 25th of 27 expansions.)

Keying is part of doing EQ, this is "how it is intended." I suspect when Blizzard's Burning Crusade Classic launches you will still have to do keying for Karazhan and Tier 5 / Tier 6 just like when it was in era.

No one goes to a TLP to re-live keying or flagging.

They go back to experience content in-era.

If you really want to nit-pick, From TLP launch until PoP, they ought to add code that randomly disconnects people, then blasts 7 tones through their speakers, followed with "Hello?" and then screaming "Are you using the internet again? I need to make a phone call!" The rate should increase exponentially while engaged with a raid boss.

While they're at it, let's despawn pets every time you zone for how many expansions?

Remove any form of QoL change.

Re-introduce the "West Bug" from DoDH until TSS is beaten.


These posts are nothing conductive to TLP's. It's simply "I did it so you should have to do it." It wasn't fun then, it is less fun now. It serves zero purpose other than gate keeping and because "it has always been this way."

and you want to make it even easier by removing it? so make it 2min 13s ? yay...

the tryhards ALWAYS get there first... the rest takes 1-2 weeks which is quite reasonable time to get to the endzone... even when comparing to later expansions

Keying is content.

This doesn't make sense, keying is content you want removed from the game. "Having dial up internet" was not actually EverQuest game content.

That's not really content either, just a difference in how pets work.

No one is saying to remove all forms of QoL, there are emulators for the people who truly want that. But keying is actually part of the content of these expansions, and that's true for almost all of the EQ expansions out there. It sets a bad precedent to just remove it because next thing you know people will be saying to not require any flagging in PoP or GoD, not requiring doing Taromani's quest in Omens of War etc etc. Where there are excessive bottlenecks in keying and quests, they have largely made adjustments. Take the VP key for example--far easier to complete now than it has ever been. The VT key shards were never that hard to farm even in era, and they still aren't, and their availability naturally scales with demand (via pickzones.)

The Scepter of Shadow quest is content, not a bug.

No, it's saying "the game designers designed the content this way, and most people play TLPs to relive that content, and we don't think you should arbitrarily remove significant portions of said content.

Well me personally I skipped that crap on Phinigel because I play Berserker I never needed VP or VT Keys & with the expansions after GoD the keying is nowhere near as onerous.
I did do the VP keying on Ragefire, before all of the fixes & extra spawn locations were added.

Picks help but they certainly don't help 4x as much, accelerating the drops by 2x would be a compromise position I think most TLP players would be happy to get, hell any improvement is welcomed. VP key actually WAS speeded up so there's really no sensible argument why VT key cannot be also speeded up for TLP.

I do. The keying and flagging ARE the content, at least a big part of it. I enjoy the push on expansion launch to get flagged and keyed. It was fun for me then, and it's fun for me now. Every time keys are eliminated or made easier, I feel that the game is diminished.

And lest you accuse me of inconsistency, I've also been against most of the QoL changes.

It's saying exactly what is says not what you want it to mean.

Who is "we"? You don't speak for everyone.

Forcing people to key/flag to gain access to content is not content itself. Removing the requirement to have said key to access content does not remove keying from the game. People can still get the keys if they so desire.

People will still do PoP progression.. since it's the best charm slot in game for several expansions.

Most people don't complete GoD flagging/keying, since it is not needed. You no longer have to complete Rondo (or 3 sewers trials) + Vext + Tipt. You only need to run Tipt. From there, all other "Keying" is tied to raiding and only one person needs to get the Ikkinz raid key(s). Originally, in GoD, you didn't even have to defeat Zun in Txevu, that was changed at the behest of guilds complaining that Tacvi access was "granted" to people who hadn't "earned" it, thus adding the key and moving the entrance to Tacvi to the ZI. Zun muram only requires one kill now to get the key for an entire raid.

Lets not forget the later additions to PoP and GoD for alternate keying/flagging...

OoW, sure no one would need to do those keys. Some BiS items still come from the raid trials. Instanced key droppers changed to always be up in the instance and always drop 6 keys..

DoN, only the requester needed flagging for the raid content. All zones were open access.

DoDH, Vule became such an issue on TLPs that they made him instanced on all servers. DSK is locked behind progression, but why? There's plenty of reason to complete the missions for augs, clickies, and theskull reward.

PoR, Nothing is locked anymore, except the ability to request Sullon Zek and for Deathknell access. You do have to have adequate numbers who've completed the harmonic chime and the 3 main arc bosses to have fetters to beat ARo, but no more than 1 needed to complete the first 3 events.

TSS, less than half of the original flagging missions are required, and it's mostly tied to faction. Even then, raid requesting does not require all of the original TSS flagging, it has been altered to a short number of quests + faction requirements.

I mean.. I can keep on going and going with it. These are not the experiences you, nor I, nor anyone else had to deal with going through at the time. Heck, even the key to VT was changed after it went live because some loud voices complained that they couldn't figure it out.


Keying is not "content" it is a mechanic that was added in a failed attempt to slow progression through content. It didn't work then, it doesn't work now.

You want people to actively participate in content? Make the content worth doing. There's reasons why so many zones are hardly ever touched on TLP's.. It has to do with not having anything worth being there for. Many/most people take the streamlined path for the best XP rates and items.

If it's not slowing you down then what exactly is your complaint? My understanding was that it WAS slowing you down in a way you don't like / feel is not needed and that's why you want it removed, or am I mis-reading your posts?

and the same goes for VT... it isn't "needed"... I didn't do it on live... I was too busy doing other shiz and I weren't in a top end raiding guild... but for those that want to do it, it's there ;-)

keying or actually doing QUESTS as it is... IS content... if you like it or not... fine you hate keying... then don't put in the effort... those that do want to do it will be glad you aren't looting stuff you don't like win win win win

They keying process does not slow down access to the content. It provides a workload that is overly unnecessary, repetitive, and open to greifing (as we've seen in the past decade or so's worth of progression servers). Increasing the availability/access to components for keying would at least reduce the amount/ability to grief others. We've seen this done with Agents of Change already.

To that end, why require it at all? If they make everything accessible when you want it, why have people arbitrarily go through the repetitive motions? Require full keying for creating instanced zones.

My complaint about EQ's "progression" tactics is that is causes a whole lot of repetition. People sitting at the same camps or re-running specific missions, not for items, XP or enjoyment, but to key/flag people. It's time that could be spent developing your character, exploring, trying to get some rare named/item/quest done. All of which is compounded on progression servers with their compressed timelines.


I know Machen has always been vocal about an excruciatingly painful EQ experience and what others do or do not deserve based on his own enjoyment. Everyone has their own likes.. I mean, that's why Zek is even still a thing. However, I highly doubt his statement that he goes to a TLP to re-live keying or flagging . " I enjoy the push on expansion launch to get flagged and keyed" is not likely the reason. It is just part of what plays into it. What is enjoyed, is beating others to XYZ, not the sitting around killing 5 mobs in the hoped that a specific named pops and then hoping that it drops a key piece, while not getting it ganked by someone else... Then doing it 5 times over for everyone in group, then again for others who still miss the piece.

Use the full statement next time:

You deliberately took that out of context to try to build some strawman argument. Do better next time.

I never said I did--there is more than one person saying they prefer keying to stay here, that is what "we" refers to, more than one person.

I mean it is quite literally content, there's a quest NPC, there's mobs you kill, there's a turn in process. I do not agree with removing the requirement to key because I think it would make TLPs less fun and less engaging. Guilds coming together to work through keying and progression is what makes a lot of these expansions fun. You obviously disagree, but you are presenting it as if you have some book of facts and it is written in there that keying is bad and no one wants or likes it. This thread shows quite clearly people still want this mechanic on TLP.

People being able to skip straight to PoTime would basically remove anything that is even remotely interesting about PoP.

I am glad you went through a random list of keying changes as requested--oh wait, no one asked or cared about any of this. Keying is still involved in completing all of those expansions whether just by the raid leader or the whole raid. No one has said they are against any and all changes to keying, so that's a red herring. I think most people were happy to see some of the changes for VP keying for example. Lots of people advocate for smoothing out the PoStorms bottleneck and things of that nature. You aren't asking for similar, you're advocating for no keying at all, which would make it fundamentally a different game.

Key quests are literally content and are a common design in MMOs and most people are fine with them.

I don't make the content so not sure who this is directed at--but lots of people have done VP and VT keys on TLPs and don't cry about it on the forums.

If you were around during these eras you would remember why they put the keying in. Remember Sleeper's tomb mobs dropping cloth caps? Why do you think ST was the only keyed zone in Velious? Because it wasn't done.

Same thing with VT. It wasn't done yet so they put in these key quests to slow people down to keep them from getting into the zone that wasn't finished.

Plane of time same thing. Wasn't finished so they had to c*ck block the guilds like FoH.

Are you starting to see the common denominator here? All the zones that required keys required them because the zones weren't finished on release and for some reason patching them in after they were done wasn't considered or wasn't an option.

I've lost a lot more than I've won. But yes, I do enjoy the competition. This, too, is part of the content.

Edit to add -- and I really don't care if that competition is open world or instanced. Give everyone access to their own instance for each of the key mobs, I have no problem with that. Just don't eliminate the need to do the content.

What does that have to do with my post that you quoted? And are you saying that Frost Crypt and Ashengate werent done either so needed keys? Deathknell? Demiplane of Blood? The Void? What about Old Seb or Howling Stones? Those require keys, were they not done? The current live expac final tier raids don't open until March 8th, are they also not done? "See the common denominator here?" No, I don't.

That's the problem, folks not wanting change weren't around or weren't playing at a level where it mattered.

This is exactly why I advocate increasing the drop rate for VT shards because it'll align better with server's unlock pace. There's way too much knowledge of the game to leave the drop rate as is because it allows people to monopolize content rather than experience it.

Personally, I think it's detrimental if you want retain players for future TLPs. Only a select few enjoy sitting at camp for hours to get a single shard only to need like 9 more for just themselves.

I don't really mind if they increase VT key rate, but I'm not convinced things are as dire as you make it out to be.

Phinigel - 20 of 22 guilds finish SoL in Era
Agnarr - Probably 85-90% of guilds finished SoL in era (the person who ran the prog site for this server shut it down so I don't remember the exact details)
Coirnav - 16 of 17 listed guilds finish SoL in era
Mangler - 13 of 17 listed guilds finish SoL in era
Aradune - 6 guilds have finished so far, of 22. But 13 have killed Emperor so I think the server is making good progress on clearing out VT.

Except, that's not what I'm advocating. While I do beg the question about requiring it, I am/was in full support of a single "key" being needed to access raid progression.

I responded to your post to explain why the keys were put into place (to slow people down). That reason is no longer valid. Therefore there is no reason not to speed up the keying process.

I don't know what the reasoning was for those future keys, I am telling you the reason they originally keyed zones and it had nothing to do with adding meaningful content. It was 100% a c*ck block maneuver.

I think it's more accurate to say that they have used keying to obscure unfinished content, but that it's no the only reason keying has ever been used. Planes of Power for example has a very elaborate lore based on progressing through the planes, and while some of the content wasn't finished at release it's pretty obvious that progressive flagging was a "core design philosophy" of Planes of Power, not just a way to hide an unfinished raid zone.