Test Update 02/09/2021 - Patch Notes and Discussions

Discussion in 'Test Update Notes and Bug Roundup' started by EQ Dev, Feb 9, 2021.

  1. Genjo Lorekeeper

    I know this is childish, but I love seeing the math ownage from post above.. LOL
  2. Cicelee Augur

    However,

    Your theory has a player camping for 12 hours at the aug camp. I do not know the average play time for the average player, but I would venture it be closer to four hours. In which case, a player spending 4 hours at an aug camp spot is looking at 75 currency. So now we have a 75 vs 180-360.

    But is the average player able to solo a named like Morwena? They may have to bring four friends to help. Which means if you divide that 75 by 5, you are looking at 19 currency.

    19 in four hours, compared to 180 in ... 90 minutes? Even doing just a basic Zlandicwr gives 45, more than the 19 if you spend four hours at a camp with four other players.

    The point is, missions will always be the go to for getting augments for the majority of the player base.
    Hellowhatsyourname and Beimeith like this.
  3. Beimeith Lord of the Game


    My math isn't wrong simply because YOU aren't able to do it. The math is still correct.

    You also obviously didn't read my other posts as you aren't the first to bring this up:



    Covennx said:
    “45 coin per heroic
    4 heroic missions
    4 runs in 24 hours
    180 per mission cycle
    720 coin per 24 hours if you run missions every 6 hours.

    18 augs needed on average for most people,
    3 will be drop, tradeskill, nathsar diamond, so 15 dropped/vendor augs needed.
    8000 coin needed for 15 augs.
    So 178 individual missions or 44.5 mission cycles or 11 days of doing missions 6 hours on the hour.

    Or spend 2 days XPing (which you are going to need to do anyways) to get the aug drops and be done worrying about them.

    I know which I picked.”


    And my reply:

    Divide that 226.8 by 6 because you have to share those augs with your group.

    Unless of course your boxing, in which case, you still need to share those augs with your group unless you don't give your boxes gear, in which case we know why you aren't able to do the missions yourself.
  4. Kianara Lorekeeper


    I did say I was being generous in my 12h assessment. Most likely, a named isn't being camped for more than 4-6h in 90% of cases.

    Beimeith, where I can admit I had an oversight was I didn't factor in that while I quoted a per-toon rate on mission coins, I didn't do that for dropped augs from named. My mistake there. Doesn't change the fact that your math was flawed though when you're working off of theoretical maximums that almost NO ONE in game will ever perform at when it comes to the subject at hand. Sure, it looks better on paper .. but in practice, those numbers will rarely, if ever, even be close to being reached. The more likely scenario is what Cicilee propsed .. which makes your math even worse off.
    WeezFv and Hellowhatsyourname like this.
  5. kizant Augur

    Increasing proc damage and decreasing proc rate is a good start. And Sancus made a good point about how the volume of procs does actually matter when considering things like Fury of the Gods for Wizards and spell damage. Hopefully, that would be taken into account.

    One other thing I'm seeing consistently on raids is that for the same spell proc I (Wizards) seem to proc them about 15% more often than the next best class. This is most likely due to our particular spell lineup/cast times and specific spells like Ethereal Confluence and Wildscorch/Wildether. In the case of Wildscorch we actually get an additional proc from the 1 dmg SPA 0 in slot 4.

    So, if you could somehow take that into account as well that would be great. Let's say you cut proc rate globally by 1/2 and increase damage by x2.3 or something to account some of what Sancus pointed out. Then account for Fury of the Gods having less opportunities to be useful by increasing it 15% to 20%. It also works on regular spell casts so it probably shouldn't be a straight 50% increase so going with like 30% of 50% is reasonable start?

    However, then accounting for us procing things 15% more often than other classes. And *maybe* consider Wizard burns are behind in general right now so increasing Fury of the Gods by 50% or even a little more might actually make sense. The only issue I see is how far back would a change like that go? It makes sense for the last few expansions where we've gotten a lot of additional procs. But maybe not worth going back too far. And we don't really have a lot of burn abilities to even choose from for improvement tbh. I did have some other suggestions but I'm pretty sure they're lost in Dzarn's inbox.

    If you want to make changes and then wait and see the new parses then that's fine too. I'll send those once everything is on live. It's not a big deal. As long as the issue is trying to be addressed I don't think it should matter if it takes a few months to get right. At least to me.
    Ulrin likes this.
  6. Trafthek Lorekeeper

    Really seems like the perfect time to do this!! We have a bugged out raid that numerous guilds have encountered, but that has only happened once on the in house server apparently. The T3 raids are opening in a couple weeks. And of course there is still the cloud hanging over the T3 golem raid as to whether its fixed or not and even beatable. Sure it is on your in house server. :) We shall see.

    You type that in there and bold MORE to appease folks, but we all know the end result is going to be a decrease to all the classes involved, and of course some more effected than others.
    WeezFv likes this.
  7. Wyre Wintermute I'm just a butterly dreaming I'm a man


    Having Undertow at a static 6hrs is so much nicer than dealing with 7 hrs + some nonsense. My only guess here is that it felt adequate and they just wanted better consistency? I don't think he needs to be a 6-hour PH spawn. Making it an 8 or 12 hour guaranteed spawn would fit better IMHO.

    As for VSR.. Ventril and his remains have a relationship issue. It was wholly possible for VS to be killed and respawn before VSR was up for any significant amount of time. this was due, in large part, to the respawn timer reduction for TLP's. VS was originally a 7-day spawn (+ or - ) so there was no conflict with the VSR spawn.
  8. Zish Elder

    Okay, you know what, most of these changes are fine.

    These, are NOT fine:
    -Renux Heranor will no longer carry a Jagged Diamond Dagger.
    -General V'ghera will no longer carry a Cazic Quill.

    This has *always* been the case. It has worked this way for twenty years. You are drastically changing the way players approach this classic, beloved questline. I can *maybe* understand the General V'ghera change, but forcing players to do the quest for Jagged Diamond Dagger is not the correct move. Never has it been necessary to do, and it should remain this way.
  9. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    Do you not understand how wizards work?

    Reducing lag is going to do sweet FA to improve our DPS. Reducing lag isn't going to make the global cooldown go any faster so we can cast more.

    Wizzys were already lacking behind our melee counterparts and in one patch you put them even further behind. :rolleyes:
  10. Metanis Bad Company

    I like their "go slow" approach while understanding that wizards need an across-the-board increase to deliverable dps. The community needs to hold their feet to the fire in order to ensure a rebalancing gets done sooner and not left to languish like the necro dot revamp.

    We need more wizards in raids so trash melts faster and clerics get a break from dealing with squishy knights! Give the wizards at least a 20% real boost to their routine stuff.
    Ulrin likes this.
  11. Sancus Augur

    Yes, it actually will. Maybe you haven't seen the level of lag that I think is more common for top end guilds on burns (you can watch one of Kizant's videos here), but extreme lag has a dramatic impact on how long your spell gems remain locked out in between casts. The GCD can literally become more than 4x as long as it should be (6s+).

    There definitely is an argument that other classes benefit more from lag reduction than Wizards. Pet classes and hybrids are disproportionately impacted by lag, notably more so than Wizards. Pure melee and Druids (on single targets) are less impacted. Lag going away absolutely would substantially increase Wizard DPS; what people are likely observing is that it doesn't improve their placement on a parse much, if at all. Additionally any proc rate reductions have a disproportionate impact on Wizards (as I've already written about).

    I would note though that the damage gap that exists between different people on the parse decreases significantly for us in the absence of lag. In the video I linked, Kizant came in 17th at 49.9% of the top player's damage. Last night, we had a low-lag Zlandicar run where the 17th player on our parse came in at 76.7% of the top player's damage. So your placement might not improve, but it does seem to me that prior to proc rate changes, the gap between classes is a lot lower in the absence of lag (though some classes are necessarily ranked lower than others).
    Galarian, Ulrin, Jhenna_BB and 2 others like this.
  12. Kelset Elder


    Ngreth, while I certainly understand the need and urgency to fix the raid lag situation, the hypothetical increase in dps due to less lag means nothing to group wizards. It's already a stretch, at least for me, to do some of the "group" hero missions with wizards as the primary dps and knocking us back for months while you work through raid parses on live is not very appealing. It's also a bit of insult to injury to wizards who rely so much on procs, including having to melee of all things, to come close to other DPS classes output.
    I'm a casual player and no where near as informed as the class leaders are on the subject, but there has to be a better way than hurting group focused wizards, or wizards in general for that matter, while you work on raid lag.

    Thanks and good luck with the fixes in any case.
  13. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    One of my guildies had the theory that lag was partially caused by the "mashkey-style" many players have with multibind setups.
    A mashkey is a single key bound to many spells and abilities with cooldowns, where the "next-ready" ability/spell is fired everytime the button is mashed.

    This is all assuming cooldowns are checked serverside, in order to prevent exploits.

    So every time the key is mashed, the sever has to check all the cooldowns associated with that key.
    As opposed to a traditional setup with keys for each spell, where only the single corresponding cooldown is checked per key-press.

    I assume a single server-side cooldown check for an ability/spell is relatively cheap in terms of server resources. But if many players have bound 5+ abillities/spells to that single mashkey, and spam it like mad, it might be a contributing factor...

    It makes sense to me...
    Wulfhere and Skuz like this.
  14. stevensg New Member

    IMO for named with PH spawns they should make it standared with 16-25 mins spawn time. The PH RNG + loot RNG is already hard enough for some of the quests so what is the point of a 6 hour spawn time? I recently finished my Iksar monk's whistling fists on live server and that one took me 3 days of camping with the help of my high level pet class toons (afk pet camping + audio trigger). None of the named involved has a spawn time longer than 30 mins but it was not fun at all to be honest. Some of the named has to be camped multiple times and I doubt camping the level 35 goblin penkeeper or goblin penmaster or fingered skeleton over and over again is anywhere challenging or fun for TLP characters.

    Yes I just noticed this on live server too. I killed VS on Wednesday night 10PM EST and parked my druid there but VSR never spawned. Just now a new VS spawned so I had to kill him again and wait for another 20+ hours to see if anything changes. This is ridiculous.
  15. stevensg New Member

    Thank you.

    Since you guys are looking into the epic 1.0 quests, is there any chance to make those Iksar only epic quests easier? For the monk whistling fists quest several nameds have to be camped over and over again and IMO that is just bad design:
    1. fingered skeleton (need 4 different fingers but he only drops 1 each time)
    2. goblin penkeeper (need the stone key from him but he may drop any key out of 6 keys)
    3. goblin penmaster (need the key and necklace but he only drops 1 each time)
    4. a spectral courier (need 3 different scrolls from him but he only drops 1 each time)
  16. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    Lag on AB hasn't been that bad, certainly not up to the levels we had a few years back which took a year to fix if not longer.
  17. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    The AB lag back then was primarily chat-related iirc, although zoning times were also terrible(if we didn't just get kicked off), The game itself responded ok, even if communication was impossible.

    Nowadays though, I do notice the increased delay on the GCD, especially when everyone pop their swarm-pets...
  18. Jhenna_BB Proudly Prestigious Pointed Purveyor of Pincusions

    Yes, the spam keys don't help. It's not all just the button mashing, it's hitting combo keys like mine that triggers Bow disc/Imbue Ferocity/BP Click/Outrider's Accy/Group Guard (last one if no Beast is in group, I have a different key in case of Bestial Alignment). You hit those keys before engage and sacrifice a few secs of procs. If you hit these types of keys after engage, you're castrating you're own dps and affecting your guildies dps. Triggering a disc, AA clicks and an item click in one key is crippling if raid boss is active. The game has an aneurysm multitasking.

    Rangers should cycle from their spam key to cast recast abilities and have a dedication key for Summer's. You'll lessen your lag and increase your cast count.
  19. Wyre Wintermute I'm just a butterly dreaming I'm a man

    I don't know. As I said, I can only guess that they felt it was adequate. I do agree that PH'd spawns should generally be on a quicker spawn rotation and I think Undertow would be much better as an 8 or 12 hr static spawn (If nothing else, due to his location in an unpopular zone).
  20. Samuiii New Member

    IMO the base damage of wizard spells needs an increase. Damage is really all wizards have. We dont have pets to tank for us and we offer not other utility. What ever happened to kiting? There are no kite camps to speak of anymore. With our current dps even if there was wizards couldn't solo. Mages, necros and chanter charm allow them to solo fairly easy. Mages and Necros can even solo some group missions. Where's the balance?
    Ulrin and Jumbur like this.