Pally healing

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Livvy_CT, Feb 3, 2021.

  1. Chaosflux Augur

    I used Rk2 terror for the record just so we are clear on numbers

    Which you are right i did post the wrong #, i was going off memory and should have looked it up for complete transparency. I also did the test on live and the TLP i play on (this was to be fair several months ago) because i was having anomalous behaviour from certain abilities.

    I am really not sure if heal aggro is a %, id guess its a capped # actually similar to how stun and debuff aggro is capped at 1200.

    IIRC that would correlate, because when i checked Valiant Defense (2300 hate + 10k heal) i got similar results, i cant recall exactly offhand but i believe i ended up at 54% hate on each cast on the 2nd mob. I have it written down somewhere ill see if i can find it.

    Either way Valiant does produce AE hate, and it can be helpful if its twincast + beacon/leap/HL for grabbing a trash pack, but by itself should easily be overpowered by other attentive tanks hitting buttons as adds spawn.

    Though i Would substitute the Denouncement line in if having tank pick up issues, since that will Reduce your hate (cant go below 1 tho) so even if other tanks are slack, their proximity alone + hopefully them hitting a button will grab it.
  2. Chaosflux Augur

    Should say i think its a capped # and you get a % of that capped # with a critical success being full value.

    Also because everything in EQ is convoluted that seems like some they would do.

    It would also explain why the further in expansions you go the less power Group healing has for establishing AE aggro.
  3. Szilent Augur

    To circle back around to OP, this bit of Paladin Life is solidly in "a feature not a bug" territory. Just be ready to ramp up defenses if necessary - which is to say if the SKs & warriors miss their pickups. Your having "default" agro won't beat another tank's direct efforts to do what they're supposed to, but it will very much protect healers / dps.
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  4. Chaosflux Augur

    Actually it probably got lost in my raving about semi related stuff

    The solution is using Remonstrate, Protective, and Burst to pass through heal, all of those also heal more since Valiant isnt focused by gear because HOTT component is 255, and the others all are within level heal focii affect.

    Atleast if adds are spawning.
  5. Wulfhere Augur

    Except that the OP is trying to maintain 2nd or 3rd on the hate list. I sometimes substitute Crush T5 for Valiant in that case, while still using Protective or Light for spot healing.

    But as Szlient said, and most raid paladins do, we are trying to grab adds along with SK and WAR to protect the healers and dps. The answer is to keep trying but also keep a quicker reuse def disc running so you can survive the attacks. E.g. Armor of Sincerity or Sincere Penitence, Shield Flash, defensive clickies.
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  6. Chaosflux Augur

    Its pretty easy to overaggro the deaggro from The Denounce line on your main target via Crush/FOD, and you thusly dont get aggro on adds though, throw a Protest for honour in and occasionally taunt with attack off if you fall to far down the aggro meter.

    It sounded like they were trying to not get the adds in which case that would work, if they are trying to get the adds i am missing the idea behind the thread.
  7. Kleitus_Xegony Augur

    The problem I see happening is in the ToV raids with all of the undead. Paladin tanking the boss mob with their Harmonious line buff up. Adds spawn, go straight to Paladin (they must get a copy of the aggro list passed to them). The more healing that the paladin needs and gets, the more harmonious procs and then the mobs are locked onto the Paladin as if they were hit with super glue. Valiant line seems to exacerbate this issue. It's particularly bad with the Kael raids when the blades and minions spawn. I sometimes see similar issues for SKs with the way we do the wedding raid.

    I haven't tanked Tantor or anything in the Zlandicar raid yet, but I did not see this behavior the one time I tanked Klandicar as a backup. None of the adds in the ToV raids have been an issue - they all seem to behave correctly.
  8. Livvy_CT Elder

    That’s exactly what happens and I agree about the aggro from boss seeming to be linked to adds, being second on the hate list and add in valiant in and as I said, I get all the adds
  9. Szilent Augur

    woot!
  10. Syylke_EMarr Augur


    Interestingly, I stopped seeing cross-agro issues when I started using my 2hander throughout Wedding event. I still think they somehow messed up rune proc agro when they made procs scale instead of each being their own separate spell.
  11. Wulfhere Augur

    I think you have it right. It's just that the advice is not only to achieve that minimal goal, but more importantly to embrace AE hate and use def discs to handle it. Cuz that is what real tanks do.
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  12. Chaosflux Augur

    Word, yeh then if getting the adds is the goal, clycle tankie buttons, cycle heal mods, penitence/guardian (their heal procs deal with multiple mobs better than mantle).
  13. Livvy_CT Elder

    When I get the adds I make sure I can see them and if no ones intercepting them, I either tank it or take it out for another tank depending on my role.
  14. Szilent Augur

    Facing them is good, sure. Recommended procedure from "if no one's intercepting them" is "complain loudly in Discord" :p

    The Pro Strat is to make friends with the MTO clerics so they do the complaining for you if they have to heal you instead of the MT.
  15. josh Augur

    If you are getting a lot of initial aggro when mobs spawn, it is because of rune procs, period. Heal hate is capped at 1500. the hate mod fix they did with heals adds the hate mod to the witness heal, so it generates about 5k hate on every target. a rune proc on the other hand, generates twice the hate of the rune.

    This is insanely easy to test. Get two mobs whacking you with minimal aggro, get a no damage weapon in, pop a healer merc and let it take them from you. cast valiant on one mob, it'll come at you, the other probably will as well but not very hard. the healer can probably still take it back with a couple casts. block promised and their hot to get them to take it back. once they have it, attack the other mob until you proc a rune, and watch the one on the healer come at you like you owe it money.

    Heal procs can generate a fair bit of hate if you use a lot at once, all those tiny heal procs each generate 1500 hate, so with enough they do get you a decent amount of ae aggro.
  16. Wulfhere Augur

    To be squarely on topic, your assertion requires that the rune proc happens within a second or two of add spawns. Every time.This is not very likely. Meanwhile a paladin can choose to cast Valiant every time.

    I'm curious about your 1500 hate cap on heals. Did you measure it? You believe it's a hard cap?
  17. Chaosflux Augur

    I actually believe its not 1500, but the cap is a moving target figured with some formula, because at lower levels its measurably less

    Theres discussion about it including patch note receipts on EQemu thread in hate mechanics on their forums it wont let me post a link here tho
  18. Chaosflux Augur

    Heres the section
    March 6, 2001
    Quote:
    – Hate from heals is also now calculated at a lesser number than the
    number of hitpoints healed. Previously, healing one hitpoint would
    cause one point of hate. Now, healing 3 hitpoints will cause 2 points
    of hate.
    February 21, 2001
    Quote:
    two separate caps have been placed for targets level
    50 or below, and 51 or above. Heal spells will generate significantly
    less hate for targets below level 51 than those at or above that level.
    Dev quote: (mentioned here http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2452)
    Quote:
    A team member has asked that we clarify the changes to the way hate is awarded in healing. The important point that may not have been clear below is that there is a cap on the amount of hate that can be awarded for any particular heal spell. For a target below level 51, no heal spell can generate more than 800 hate, regardless of the number of hitpoints healed. For targets level 51 or above, the cap is higher, but does not approach the total hitpoints of a fully buffed warrior.
    On EQLive it used to be 1 = 1 like damage, but changed to 2/3rds in 2001, and remains so today. The highest level character I tested heal aggro on was level 96.

    I included the time stamps of the EQ patch these correlate too
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  19. Chaosflux Augur

    Though its interesting to note that their proposed 800 cap (or the one that we have a verifiable dev word on albeot from 2001) correlates pretty closely to what i had from Valiant when you add the hate mod to the heal value

    And also correlate with my earlier assertion noticing behavior in how useful group heals are for creating aggro tapers off the be further in expansions you go, with it peaking in relation to othet classes AE aggro stuff in Letd say POP/Omens and having a diminishing effect the further in time you go from that point.
  20. Skaara New Member


    To keep this post succinct, josh is correct and hate on heals is hard capped at 1500. I have parsed this and it is easily testable. Get another tank, snag n mobs, generate a predictable amount of threat on each (have SK cast terror n times) and have healer cast a heal.

    I have tested heal aggro using a Shaman and Paladin and aggro was 1500 for all heals.
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