Failure rate on research augments

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by eqMath, Jan 25, 2021.

  1. eqMath Journeyman

    The fail rate on research augments seems absurdly high. It took me 15 attempts to get a success. For the 15 attempts (Faded Velium Gem of Striking), I also failed 6 of the jewelcrafting subcombine. Each attempt costs 10500pp. With salvage, my total cost was 100k to make an aug.. it would have been much better for me to buy it in the bazaar. I just got 300 research today, and had been working on it for a while, trying to do so so that I could make the augments. The augments selling in the bazaar are for 25k. It may be that the person selling them has a TS potion on and camps out in between combines (TS mule for bazaar purposes).

    After the first augment, I guess I hadn't had enough (thinking it was just bad luck) so I tried to make another aug.

    The second time I failed 4 times before I got a lucky success (Faded Restless Velium Gem of Striking). I salvaged twice. Total cost: 21k

    The third time (Faded Velium Gem of Devastation) I failed 19 times, and salvaged a total of 14 pieces - total cost: 126k

    It feels like I am supposed to buy the Draught of the Craftsman to do these tradeskill combines. The trivial is sky high. It wasn't a good experience considering the time and money I had already put in trying to get research up.

    Code:
    01/25/21 06:09:07 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:10:28 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 06:11:17 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:11:20 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:11:25 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 06:11:43 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:11:48 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 06:11:54 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:11:54 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Cleaning Solution.  It has been left in your inventory.
    01/25/21 06:11:58 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:12:02 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 06:12:02 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Rune Binding Stain.
    01/25/21 06:12:02 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:12:05 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 06:12:05 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Rune Binding Stain.
    01/25/21 06:12:11 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:12:24 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 06:12:52 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:12:52 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Cleaning Solution.  It has been left in your inventory.
    01/25/21 06:12:56 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:12:56 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Cleaning Solution.  It has been left in your inventory.
    01/25/21 06:12:59 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:13:03 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 06:13:03 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:13:09 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:13:35 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 06:13:35 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Rune Binding Stain.
    01/25/21 06:13:41 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 06:13:41 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:13:41 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Rune Binding Stain.
    01/25/21 06:13:44 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 06:13:44 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:13:44 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Rune Binding Stain.
    01/25/21 06:13:47 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 06:13:47 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:13:52 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 06:13:52 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:13:56 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 06:14:11 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:14:15 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 06:14:15 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Rune Binding Stain.
    01/25/21 06:14:51 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:14:55 PM    You have learned the recipe Faded Velium Gem of Striking!
    01/25/21 06:14:55 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Faded Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 06:32:02 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Restless Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 06:32:02 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Round Cut Restless Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:32:24 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Restless Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 06:32:24 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Rune Binding Stain.
    01/25/21 06:32:57 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Restless Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 06:32:57 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Rune Binding Stain.
    01/25/21 06:32:57 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Round Cut Restless Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 06:33:01 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Restless Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 06:33:17 PM    You have learned the recipe Faded Restless Velium Gem of Striking!
    01/25/21 06:33:17 PM    You have luckily fashioned the items together to create something new: Faded Restless Velium Gem of Striking.
    01/25/21 07:30:04 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:30:07 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:30:10 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:30:10 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Cleaning Solution.  It has been left in your inventory.
    01/25/21 07:30:14 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:30:17 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:30:21 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:30:25 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:30:42 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:30:50 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:30:50 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:30:53 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:30:53 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:30:53 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Rune Binding Stain.
    01/25/21 07:30:55 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:30:55 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:30:59 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:31:03 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:31:03 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:31:07 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:31:07 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Rune Binding Stain.
    01/25/21 07:31:10 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:31:10 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:31:12 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:31:12 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Rune Binding Stain.
    01/25/21 07:31:18 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:31:22 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:31:22 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Rune Binding Stain.
    01/25/21 07:31:25 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:31:31 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:31:37 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:31:37 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Cleaning Solution.  It has been left in your inventory.
    01/25/21 07:31:40 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:31:44 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:31:44 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:31:48 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:32:00 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:32:00 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Cleaning Solution.  It has been left in your inventory.
    01/25/21 07:32:04 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:32:07 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:32:07 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:32:10 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:32:16 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:32:19 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:32:40 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:32:40 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Cleaning Solution.  It has been left in your inventory.
    01/25/21 07:32:43 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:32:46 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:32:52 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:32:52 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:32:52 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Rune Binding Stain.
    01/25/21 07:32:55 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:32:55 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:33:25 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:33:34 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:33:42 PM    You have learned the recipe Faded Velium Gem of Devastation!
    01/25/21 07:33:42 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:34:27 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:34:31 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:34:40 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:34:40 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Rune Binding Stain.
    01/25/21 07:34:44 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:34:52 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:34:52 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Rune Binding Stain.
    01/25/21 07:34:56 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:34:59 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:35:03 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:35:07 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:35:07 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Cleaning Solution.  It has been left in your inventory.
    01/25/21 07:35:10 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:35:14 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:35:14 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Rune Binding Stain.
    01/25/21 07:35:16 PM    You have fashioned the items together to create something new: Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:35:26 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
    01/25/21 07:35:26 PM    You failed the combine, but you managed to recover Round Cut Velium Diamond.
    01/25/21 07:35:29 PM    You lacked the skills to fashion Faded Velium Gem of Devastation.
  2. Cragzop Cranky Wizard

    No, you are really suppose to have a research skill close to, if not, 350 unmodified before really making these augs (true of the last several expansions).

    Because they really could not just keep raising the trivial levels, even after raising tradeskills to 350, they implemented an increased failure rate and an extra success rate as you got closer to max skill (350). So the good old calculator on EQ Traders (which shows a 57% success rate at 300 with max trophy and 3 levels of aas in research) cannot be trusted.

    I'm assuming you are at max trophy and have purchased the first 3 aas in research (or 13 if you have 23 ranks of the aa).
    Svann2 likes this.
  3. Svann2 The Magnificent

    Even with 350 plus max trophy you still get some failures.
    Jhenna_BB and Skuz like this.
  4. Daktarr Lorekeeper

    The failure rate wouldn't be so hard to take if it didn't cost 5k from the vendor for a component. On a type 5 aug, it takes 3 store-bought components at 5k each. If I am making the items for me, I can suck it up, but explaining to a friend that you random failed and lost all his stuff is embarrassing.

    ~Daktarr
    dreadlord likes this.
  5. Act of Valor The Newest Member

    Well, people complain there isn't a plat sink in this game, but this is proof positive that there is at least one.
    Issk likes this.
  6. Warpeace Augur

    350 in all skills is the basic standard now with max TS AA and trophies. You can also toss in Artisan's Prize for the added 5% reduction of failing combines if your wanting to make the newest stuff with minimal failures.

    Range can still be rough though.
  7. smash Augur

    300 unmodified is low, i would not dream of doing it with that low.
    Svann2 and Duder like this.
  8. Duder Augur

    There is and should be a reason to have a higher skill. I'm impressed that you are surprised at your failure rate. 300 unmodded is really very low for attempting these augs. It's pretty simple, increase your unmodded skill level to achieve a better success to failure ratio. Tradeskills have a cost, if you don't want to take the risk then you can buy it in the bazaar like you eluded to.
  9. Grove Augur

    This may be purely coincidental, but I have found that failures come in a series. So, if I am working something important, expensive I will stop the work after a failure and continue the next day.
  10. Zamiam Augur

    I dont TS much but I am a GM tailor 312 unmodd and I find on certain things if I use the Make all button i get more failures than if I were to just click the combine button manually .. so when I make my unexpanded bags I click manually and it seems to me i get better results ..jmho
  11. Bjpotratz New Member

    I was curious about my failure rate on these augs so I checked my logs. Out of 93 attempts I have had 81 successes (87%). That's with 350 skill, max trophy, and artisan's prize. So at max skill the success rate isn't bad at all. Note that's just for the research part.
  12. Sokki Still Won't Buff You!!

    You can get your Research to like 311-312 just by scribing all of the recipe books in CR, PoK and Abysmal Sea. I would suggest Maxing out the Trophy before you do that though. If you scribe all of the books first it will make lvling the Trophy a lot harder after, you lose an easy recipe to lvl it with since that will put you over the Triv for it.
  13. Darchon_Xegony Augur

    15k is a loss, but really not that much by today's standards.

    I recall quite a few times in PoP I would attempt a Ceramic from PoFire which would take a good group several hours to see just 1 of the components drop necessary for the combine fail even at max skill. Or even worse, doing Farwater combines from PoWater that someone spent weeks farming two different camps to get the components to make a set of legs or chestplate for an alt, and then even with max skill only having a 50/50 chance to succeed the combine. Those were probably the most brutal tradeskill failures I ever experienced.

    Even failing some final steps in the 1.0 or 2.0 Coldain Shawl quest weren't that awful to refarm. Though the Convorteum shawl crawl succeeding with all the bugginess of that robot only to fail to final combine was rough also.
    Skuz likes this.
  14. smash Augur

    dont expect to get to 310 by reading books, if you not done a lot different recipes while getting to 300
  15. Duder Augur

    If you have done 300 by 1 recipe alone you will get 313 or 314 via books from PoK. (As long as you have the AAs to go above 300)
  16. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    I would say you are expected to be 350+max Trophy+Artisan's Prize bonus on the crafting items in EoK + Expansions.
    The failure rate differential attempting recipes with 300+trophy vs 350+trophy+AP is quite a hefty one so you have to either think about how badly you want an item & how much you are willing to lose in plat on fails at 300 vs how much you should invest in getting that trade skill to 350.
  17. OlavSkullcrusher Augur

    The OP doesn't specify whether they have the research mastery AA, but perhaps they do not. Although, it would be really odd for someone to have the salvage AA and neglected to get the first 3 ranks of the mastery AA, at least.

    The description of the mastery AA says that it reduces the failure rate, so with rank 3 reducing the failure rate by 50%, that should mean a 50%+ chance of success regardless of trivial. If something was changed in the formula when EoK came out and raw skill was allowed to go over 300 that would reduce this benefit, then that should be something we should have been explicitly told by Ngreth or someone else.

    Diversion into my understanding of probability: If we assume a 50% chance of success, then the odds of it taking n attempts to succeed would be 1/2^n. Therefore, the odds of succeeding only on the 15th attempt would be 1/2^15 = 1/32768 ~ 0.003%. It's not impossible that that happened to him, but it is really darn unlucky.
    Daktarr likes this.
  18. eqMath Journeyman

    I would question whether expecting a new/returning/casual player to do 2400 research combines (350) or the Artisan's Prize (arguably more work than that and/or a significant platinum investment) is good for the game. Now, I realize I'm not expected to do all that, but it feels like that's suggested as the solution in this thread. I guess I naively thought that like previous eras of EQ, if you put in the time and effort of raising the TS yourself you can make items yourself, it just costs money and time. Now skilling up to 300 is only step 1; without 350 and the Artisan's Prize I pay a hefty premium to make something myself.

    If that really is the case, it still isn't a good user experience to be allowed to combine the aug with 300 skill and fail that frequently, there is no indication that the success rate is that bad. If tradeskills aren't intended to be something you participate in without first getting 350 (doing a significant portion of the available research combines in the game?), that is unfortunate.
  19. OlavSkullcrusher Augur

    I have to strongly disagree with this. Getting to 350 in every skill you can use + Artisans Prize is an enormous undertaking far above simply getting 300 in each skill. It requires spending a couple thousand AA points to be able to raise all of those skills to 350, an enormous amount of time farming components in trivial content to learn enough recipes (and a diminishing hope of buy lines getting them for you as so few people ever do anything with that content other than to farm it for themselves), being flagged for PoP up to the Elemental Planes to do the Aid Grimel quests + Eron's Jewelry, and then finally the Artisan's Prize itself.

    I played from Oct. '99 to a little after PoP, took a break for about a year and then played again for a while to a little after TSS released. I was doing tradeskills pretty much from the beginning, selling banded armor for 1pp per AC. I did fine plate, the old cultural with blue diamonds, and sold Mistletoe Cutting Sickles in the Bazaar. (I mostly liked blacksmithing back then.) After a long break, I came back to EQ from a stint of mostly playing EQ2 a couple of months after EoK was released. I've never been a raider, so I had very little done of PoP flagging. I left before there was 'learning' recipes, I think, so I was starting from scratch there.

    Four expansions released since I got back, and I still don't have a single TS at 350 (my favorite Blacksmithing is at 339), nor have I even started the Artisan's Prize quest itself. I did finally finish PoP flagging and Aid Grimel a couple months ago, though I still have a couple of steps to go for Eron's Jewelry.

    This is because I have been unwilling to devote large swathes of time exclusively on this project. I did not want to completely forgo spending AA on things that help my wizard do more damage to buy ranks in mastery of everything until I maxed all of them. Nor did I want to completely forgo hunting in content that would gain me xp and gear to farm drops in trivial content. Nor did I want to spend all of my time looking to see if PoP bosses were up so that I could get the flags needed to do Aid Grimel.

    I did do these things, spending many, many hours on them, but I would do them sporadically. Hence why I am still working on them four years later.

    I applaud people that wanted to do all of that banged it out straight away, joining the max tradeskills club. But that amount of work should not be seen as 'required' to do crafting from EoK onwards. It should be a nice bonus to your success rates (plus the awesome stats of the Artisan's Prize, of course).

    To be completely honest, I am still astonished at the thinking that having to 'learn' ~90% of all of the recipes that exist in the game by doing them at least once was the method chosen to gain skill past 300. (I don't think any skills have enough books to get you much past 310.) The number of hours I've spent with my wizard obliterating grey-con mobs, taking druid and ranger alts on two of my three accounts to LDoNs and other zones to forage while I solo a different alt on my third account, and so on is mind numbing.

    The recipes and drop rates for them in past expansions was not set up with learning the recipes in mind. (Not to mention having to go back and do them again in many cases since the mechanism to learn recipes wasn't in the game yet for the oldest content.) It was not assumed that players would make at least one of everything in the expansion, but that they would look at what they would make use of for themselves or their friends and make only that. Sometimes the crafted gear was good, sometimes, it was easier to get a drop that would be better anyway. That was always the way crafted gear worked, and I liked it that way. It was an option. You didn't have to make anything you didn't want to.

    If there is anything that is a pet peave of mine about EQ, it is how haphazard and random the thoughts and design of things has been. Trying out a new idea for itemization, quest mechanisms and so on for an expansion and then abandoning it if it doesn't work well or isn't received by the players well is perfectly fine. But then it should be truly abandoned and not be something a player needs to go through again to do something new. Nostalgia is a big part of why EQ is still going, but I really don't like the idea that current content sometimes relies on having done something from 10+ years ago. Why should I have to make hundreds of armor recipes from 15 year old content in order to get better at blacksmithing now? Why should I need to be raid flagged for 2/3 of an old, old expansion to make something for my character now that otherwise doesn't require any raiding?
  20. Sokki Still Won't Buff You!!

    I wouldn't say 350 is required, but I would highly recommend maxing out the Trophy.

    My skill atm is 313 (300 + Scribing Books) + Max Trophy + AP and I have no trouble making the augs. I've failed a few but my success rate is probably 75%+ at least with them. AP is a nice focus to have for all TS's so I would suggest people do that if they want to do TS's. At the same time it's only 5% reduction in fails so it's not exactly required.