Threat value on clickies

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Aneuren, Jan 20, 2021.

  1. Aneuren Tempered Steel

    To be clear. In the Classic era, Warrior threat has not scaled well enough versus the increases in player power from other classes, even accounting for the shared stun augments (that every class can use and therefore should not really be counted in the first place) and provoke line. Improving everyone's threat does not fix the problem with Warrior threat. This problem is gradually rectified during the course of a TLP. Again, on Mangler in the DoDH era, I barely notice it anymore.

    But because I am not knowledgeable about Warrior affairs in the post-Underfoot era, I am hesitant to suggest anything stronger than a type 4 tank-only threat augment. I know that TLP changes have a history of interfering with live, and I don't want to request something that might have that effect. But I am interested in making the way easier for newer Warriors on younger TLP servers.

    It was only a few years ago that developers found legacy coding that apparently had been interfering with the effectiveness of Taunt since the beginning of EverQuest - I recall the patch notes. The memories of poor Warrior threat may not reflect what was actually intended at the level that many of us experienced so long ago. But because of increases to player power, it is not enough to simply compare Warriors now with how Warriors "should be from the old days" anyway. And that logic does not really matter much in a world of TLPs where several classes have seen changes, nerfs, and buffs.

    A major tool that was used by Warriors in all situations - one that did not require a specific set-up or reliance on other players/classes - has now been removed. A solution to bring Warrior threat in-line with what it should be (and one that could be used by the other tanking classes anyway) is called for and would have no adverse impacts on any other player's gameplay.
    MasterMagnus likes this.
  2. Wulfhere Augur

    Sorry no. Players did have hate mechanics figured out in era before Luclin. The nerfs to Bard song hate (the first group buffs) were one of the earliest adjustments.

    MGB was certainly one of those forcing functions as you say. I remember being able to MGB Brell's in Luclin raids for huge amounts of hate before that was nerfed in 2006.
    MasterMagnus likes this.
  3. Karreck Somebody

    Hi
    I played a Warrior from Classic until GoD back in the day. I raid tanked a ton as well.
    The early game was broken and warriors were on the short end of the stick.
    1. Our damage was nerfed early on, lowering our ability to generate threat. Fun fact, the lowering of warrior damage is where the term Nerfed comes from, as us warriors complained that it felt like we were using nerf weapons. The more you know!
    2. We had no inherent spells or abilities that would generate threat, relying instead on weapon procs and an unreliable Taunt button. Weapon procs were in very short supply in Classic by the way.
    3. We didn't "get gud". DPS players knew they needed to control their own aggro. They would wait to engage, hold attacks/spell casts then re-engage, and those who had aggro dumps (like monks) would use them frequently. Players who did not control their aggro didn't last long in groups or raids.As a Warrior, as we did was meat shield. There was no skill to it. The hardest part about playing a warrior back then was leveling.
    4. While we made do with what we had, we constantly championed for improvements for the warrior class. Luclin AA's started us in the right direction, and we saw an increase in aggro minded tank weapons, abiltiies, and improvements with each expansion.
    5. We used anything that would help us with aggro, including clickies, where we could. We would use any exploit we could get away with. All the top guilds did. Hell, Furor, the most prominent warrior in the community, was notorious for using exploits. These exploits filtered down from top end guilds and into the community over time.

    While warrior threat generation is better now than it was back then, it is still awful. Warriors, and even Knights, need better threat tools starting from Classic.
    Triconix, Aneuren, Skuz and 1 other person like this.
  4. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh


    Howdy Karreck, nice to meet you.

    I'd like you to meet Wulfhere, they're pretty old school too.

    And Aneuren, who started this thread and is trying to bring it back on topic.

    They are much better qualified to talk actual warrior in classic with you. I played a Necromancer, and I knew how to hold dps and fd thank you very much, it was no trouble at all.

    Most of my post was wrecking the poor fools who couldn't argue their way out of a wet paper bag.

    And couldn't even stay on point.

    /bow still undefeated.

    And with that I'll leave you all to it.
  5. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Anyone who thinks skill is the most important player attribute doesn't understand EQ as well as they think they do or they are wrongly defining knowledge as skill, sure skill definitely helps a little but it is massively overrated.
    EverQuest was never & has never been a game that required a high level of skill, the degree of skill any player has is not what defines any player of EQ, you need some skill but very skilled vs adequately skilled there's really very little appreciable difference.

    EverQuest is first & foremost a game that relies upon knowledge, knowledge is the true power of an EverQuest player. e.g. the more you know about the game the better you become at it, so long as you are applying that knowledge. The difference between a very knowledgeable & a not very knowledgeable player can be absolutely massive, some players have enough knowledge to play well, some lack enough knowledge to play well & some have enough knowledge to not just play well but play exceptionally well.

    That's why sites like EQResource & Allakhazam are perennial staples of the knowledgeable EQ player, they aren't skill-guides, or class guides per say, they are repositories of knowledge, an EQ Library, quest info spell info ability info.
    EQ does also rely on judgement & to some degree upon timing - how much of those you need depends on your class, the timing part is really the only place where any appreciable level of skill comes into play, e.g. timing your heals so you get the most efficient use of your mana & the tank doesn't die.

    That's why returning players have such a hard time when they return from a long break, it's not because their skills have depreciated to an incredible degree it's because they lack the vast amount of knowledge required as so much was added to the game in their absence.

    But with the TLP servers there are now players experiencing that content with a much different perspective, they are not teenagers who have never seen anything like it before, they are mostly grizzled veterans who have been around the MMORPG genre a long time, they can pinpoint the problems with precision & elaborate on workable solutions and what is their goal? Are they trying to destroy the classic experience? Well the purist might argue yes they are, but that's a poor understanding of the motivations, most players just want EQ to be the best it can be, in every era/expansion of the game, if they see something they feel can be improved to make the game a better experience for themselves and others then I think that's commendable.

    However some of those knowledgeable players are on TLP using what they learned from however many years of live they played in undesirabe ways, that's how things like the exploitation of clickie buffs for aggro even became a problem, it's how the RIng War exploit became a problem, modern knowledge being used to negatively & selfishly gain an advantage in older content. Not all of that "knowledge is power" is used for good.

    I am glad the clickie-buffs got fixed but as we have covered before it shines a light on why players felt it necessary to use them - players are not willing to wait for Warriors to build aggro like they had to in 1999, they are used to the modern game where all the tanks have snap aggro tools & playing that old content can be tiresome & feel too slow, not only did the game change the players changed too, TLP I think do need to keep pace, we don't have a truly classic experience on TLP so how about we simply make it the best experience it can be with the modern class toolsets retrofitted, if the purists want to go to P99 green that's fine, they aren't here anyway.
    Triconix, Barton, Aneuren and 3 others like this.
  6. Wulfhere Augur

    Oh don't get that impression. Warrior hate generation has been a sore spot since 1999 too. In fact I would say that with all the changes to hate mechanics over the decades, warriors now have (much) better hate generation in TLP then they ever did in-era.

    In 1999, warriors traded DPS for hate. We learned that low delay weapons and duel-wielding generated more hate. We learned that some Original weapons, with poor ratios, had procs that generated a lot of hate: e.g. GHL, Obsidian Shard, Crookstinger, SSoY. (caveat: hate from these items is different/less in TLP then in-era). We learned that click self-buffs generated pseudo-AE (witness) hate e.g. JBoots.

    Hate generation was why hybrid tanks (ranger, paladin, shadow knight) were preferred group tanks over warriors in-era. Hybrids could do it while warriors couldn't and to a frustrating degree (even to this day on TLP).
    Triconix, Aneuren, Karreck and 2 others like this.
  7. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh


    Thank you again, I stand corrected. It's all fascinating to me of course, and many others. Really appreciate it.
    Wulfhere likes this.
  8. Wulfhere Augur

    This ^
    Triconix and Karreck like this.
  9. Karreck Somebody

    You played a Necro, not a Warrior. So you have no practical experience with the issues of Warriors back in the day. Ergo, you have nothing of value to add to this discussion.
    You should leave before you embarrass yourself more than you already have.
  10. WaitingforMoreEQ WaitingforTBC

    There were no super early nerfs to bard hate. I just bring it up because it's the first thing i can remember in which someone was "exploiting" buff hate, which means it's been in the game since at least Luclin probable since the beginning.

    For reference people had zero clue how to abuse buff hate from instant clickies or this would've been common knowledge decades ago rather then becoming common knowledge a few years ago.

    Man so many people in this thread just making up to suit their narrative. Warrior agro is insane on TLPs compared to what it was Originally Classic-PoP. Your other DPS shouldn't be using out of era Stun augs over Dot augs and the Berate line is in during Classic instead of having to wait till LDoN for it.
  11. Karreck Somebody

    This right here. We are all looking at EQ through the eyes of numerous other MMO's and RPGs. If you want the classic experience, go to P99. I want to see the classic experience improved upon in TLPs.
    Triconix, MasterMagnus and Skuz like this.
  12. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh


    Do you honestly think you want to have a go at me?

    I'm happy to oblige.
  13. KrakenReality Augur

    They don’t even develop or fix the classes on Live anymore. They’re definitely not going to put any time or effort into TLP-era classes.
  14. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    That not true at all, heck we just had the (long overdue) but very extensive revamp of the Necromancer spell line up 75+

    Every class will always be advocating for fixes & changes, as it always had, but saying there is no development is just wrong.

    Now CoV is definitely somewhat lacking in the AA & spells departments & there is plenty of perfectly justifiable unhappiness around that but there are plenty of mitigating circumstances for why that was the case.
    I think we will see continued class developments for sure when the next expansion rolls around.
    Triconix likes this.
  15. KrakenReality Augur

    That was last year man, after 4 years in progress. They very clearly don’t work on classes.
  16. Wulfhere Augur

    Lol, from that statement I'm guessing you didn't play or group with bards much. Originally bards had better hate generation, because they are buffing the group (hate x 6), then any class with the /taunt skill. Bard beneficial hate was capped before RoK was released iirc. Bard beneficial song hate is still high enough to be noticeable on TLP (under level 20 especially).
  17. Bobbybick Only Banned Twice

    Wait hol up, how do some of you have custom forum titles.
    Machen likes this.
  18. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh

    Bobbybick likes this.
  19. Aneuren Tempered Steel


    I am sorry, but you are simply not correct. I am not making up (?) to suit my narrative, and although you are somewhat correct in your statement that "Warrior agro is insane on TLPs compared to what it was Originally Classic-PoP," it would lead the reader to a misleading conclusion that Warrior aggro is in an acceptable place in the Classic-Luclin eras. It is not, especially given that power creep - and the knowledge to take best advantage of that creep - has risen across the board.

    Karreck is correct to say that "[w]e used anything that would help us with aggro, including clickies, where we could. We would use any exploit we could get away with. All the top guilds did. Hell, Furor, the most prominent warrior in the community, was notorious for using exploits. These exploits filtered down from top end guilds and into the community over time." So I cannot fairly say entirely that Warriors would not have used clickies to generate threat even if their aggro was adequate, because we as a class live in a world where there is not such thing as too much aggro. But you can absolutely observe the lack of Warrior threat without jboots.

    There is a justifiable fear for players not wanting to discuss threat-generating strategies on these forums, and the more of these techniques that are removed, the worse of a situation that TLP Warriors will be in. This is a primary reason for why I want to see a developer sanctioned improvement to TLP Warrior threat. If it is not an ability or item given to us by the developers, we cannot assume that it will be there tomorrow.

    Earlier in the thread, there was a brief conversation about the difference between a meat-shield and a tank. I would like to think that even you would agree, that if Warriors had absolutely no threat generating mechanics of any kind, then they could not be considered either a meat-shield or a tank. Maybe a pacifist heh. The intrinsic need for a Warrior is to maintain some level of threat that is proportionately adequate to maintain aggro versus other players. The small changes I suggested above would not create a total and effortless aggro lock for Classic-era Warriors, and would not carry over once raid gear turns to Type 8 augment slots. Moreover, as they would be shared between all tank classes, Knights would still generate more threat than would Warriors using the same tools. Class balance is preserved and not a single thing is taken from another class - especially true given how plentiful Knights were even with jboot spam threat. Encounter difficulty will be less impacted than it was with jboots spam.

    I do agree that other classes should not be using the weaker type 4 stun augments, but that is irrelevant. The stun augments, which also have a DD, are usable by all and are by definition then are a potential increase to threat across the board - not a boost for Warriors or Tanks alone.
    Wulfhere likes this.
  20. Foaming I Drank Bleach IRL Once

    As someone who abused click threat and has for a long time I hated using it, but atleast I could do something to affect my threat. Procs are unreliable, and worst part is I don't even control them. Literally nothing I do affects them. Terrible design.

    Berate is a good option, but it is honestly far too little threat for far too much endurance in these eras. Reducing the endurance cost by 50% and increasing the threat by 50% would be a good change that allows Warriors to actually use an ability when they want and have it actually affect a fight.