Threat value on clickies

While I'm clearly out of my depth in this thread. I'm compelled to remind you all about something in Classic.

In classic, each Class - Race - Deity combination was NOT designed to be balanced, by intention.

There were difficulty levels. When creating a Human - Necromancer - Innoruuk you were warned "this is high difficulty".

Insistence on 'balance' was a later addition, as Skuz says Progress.

The devs that made those changes are not the ones who designed it to begin with.

It's fine to want all the new things for TLP, because as we're all clear, it's nothing like classic.

But classic wasn't broken, some that value skill these days might have appreciated it.

And my original post did not suggest a method that would be even close to this. Especially without Weapon Affinity AAs. An enraging-blow style augment, or an enraging-blow style augment with a rune component, type 4, probably would not even be enough for instant and unlimited aggro lock. Better would be a very low endurance gut-punch style ability with a 10 second cooldown/45 second recourse/750-1000 range hate (useful for rapid pulls and a good threat-start but less able to stack for unlimited threat).

But given the developer resource limitations, I thought an augment would have the best chance of implementation.

Edit: double-post due to time out, apologies.

Did you even play at the high end back then? Half the was unfinished at release and every subsequent expac release, the game was an everchanging landscape not everything was well thought or even complete hes pointing out some of the things that were in fact not very well thought out.

If they were people wouldnt have been exploiting goofy crap to get more aggro

No I was never max level.

There are always bugs. That's a given.

They might not have accomplished their goal well.

I simply point out it was not the original design intention to have the classes be perfectly balanced.

You may have seen enough to say, hell yeah it was broken.

From where I sit, I had fun, it was not even remotely broken. I'm pretty glad I didn't go to max level, my intention day 1 was to take the road less traveled by.

World building and environments were good, as was the development of a massive community. I give early EQ a lot of credit for fantastically designed worlds, filled with creativity, which allowed for complete immersion of the player. But that's what the original devs were limited to.

The positives of what the devs accomplished in classic EQ cannot fully absolve or excuse the game of the major issues in classic and kunark. Classic and kunark had clear deficiencies that cannot be overlooked now, even with the most rose-colored glasses. Class balance was literally non-existent; Class design for many classes was laughable (the nickname casterquest exists for a reason);Itemization, or lack thereof, is incoherent and nonsensical; Raids were just zerg LD fests, partially because of the lack of technology to support massive raids and partially because raid design was bland. Devs just didn't know how to design around their conceptual ideas and it's obvious. It took them until half way through Velious, when a vast majority of raid items from that expansion were re-itemized (which many don't remember), that some sensible itemization occurred.

Just because "that's the way it was" in classic, it doesn't make it good or right. Things should progress for the better. Designs - from class structure to itemization - should be reviewed and revised over time, especially now when TLPs make older content more relevant than ever. It may be difficult to "fix" all the problems in class design without affecting live, but there are definitely ways of accomplishing it. One example, since I'm most in tune with a warrior, is mimicking discs of newer generations and backfilling them into classic kunark. Provoke/Berate are essentially two disc lines merged together (it works like the bellow line but leverages the mock line timer). Why? Disconnect them, tweak the numbers a bit, and that gives us two legitimate aggro abilities right there.

SMH
I already said it's fine to have all the new things in TLP.

Nobody is trying to have something taken away from you.

You don't have to make a case the game was broken to lobby for your aggro generator.

Make your case on the merits of todays world. Not by bashing something that simply can't be changed.

Sounds like you guys need the aggro generator, so I'd stick to that.

Did you really just say it took skill to play in Classic? Let me guess, you think that rubbing your belly and patting your head at the same time takes skill?

Wow pro bro, who were you and what did you play?

...crickets

Let me explain some reading comprehension to you pro bro.

I said:

some = Not necessarily everyone.
that value skill these days = You think highly of skill whether you are skilled or not.
might = May or may not.
have appreciated it = enjoyed playing it back then.

Your reading comprehension fail proves, whoever you think you are in EQ, you're nothin' in Forum Quest.

Crickets because I didn't answer within 10 minutes.. Gotcha. Unfortunately, I do have better stuff to do than instantly refreshing the EQ Boards. And since I don't hide behind a screen name, you can just look at my username to figure out who I am.

Thankfully, I don't try to be anything in Forum Quest. You referenced skill, in a game that doesn't require it. And classic was very, very broken. You've already admitted you never experienced higher level play, whereas others have and have indeed seen these problems. Yet you keep arguing that the game was fine, because YOU never had a problem in the newbie game. Go back to slaying fire beetles where you belong.

Sorry it was so rough on you without exploits to carry you through your fails.

"Shield of the Immaculate was considered a hate staple"

"Feign Death is supposed to take themself off the aggro list"

"Self buffs didn't generate agro in Classic"

Fact check- the 3 above claims are false.

For reference when Terrors first came out they weren't instant cast and every good SK was still spamming clinging darkness and fear for agro. Keep your live gameplay design off TLPs, we TLPers prefer the balance approach that leaves different classes good at different things.

Reading comprehension FTW son.

Self buffs didn't generate aggro in classic. I know that, I acknowledged that.

I was pointing out a progression of time AFTER the change was made, and what occurred organically over years .

You fail so hard, but try again.....

I could wipe the floor with you buffoons' stupidity all day, every day.

But let's get right to the point.

I'll take a warrior's opinion who made it to top level in classic without whining about it over these tears any day.

They're out there, you don't hear from them so much, 'cus they don't whine.

The REAL og people who were actually there playing warriors in classic, and thought the game was broken, stomped their little feet and quit.

Those that didn't got gud.

Those that were best, didn't use exploits, and bore with the bugs, because they were the first, and will forever be.

School is over kiddies, you can go back to your little TLP now.

Even with my help, you haven't seemed to get much dev attention to you aggro generator. Good luck with that.

The irony. I put the comment in quotes because i'm paraphrasing your claim.

The reality is self buffs did generate agro in classic, people didn't figure out how to use buff agro till MGB came out with Luclin.

To clear things up.
Shield of the Immaculate was never a "hate staple"
FD wasn't designed to be a tool for dropping agro mid fight.
Buff Agro was in during classic.

Ok so I apologize. Reminder we are talking about 'self buff instant click items' not aggro from other buffs.

You're saying all the instant click self buff items always drew threat, and they just now took them away, because they only now realized that was an exploit that was never intended (as others have pointed out it wasn't used much at first or whatever)?

There was never a time when they had a patch with notes that said, 'adding aggro to self buffs'?

Self buffs always created Agro, this wasn't a new mechanic. They recently changed that with some of the items because people it had become popular and people were complaining on the forums about it. For example Jboots https://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=874&source=Live

2020-10-10 15:14 Changed No_detrimental_spell_aggro from 0 to 1

It's possible that at some point they increase the amount of hate generated by self buffs and i'm unaware of it. But Bards have been kiting all the TVX trash around using buff/song agro since before Planes of Power was released originally.

Also everyone make sure to thank Bobbybick for streaming this "exploit" and getting it nerfed

Nope.

In fact the opposite has been true. Beneficial spell hate from buffs, heals, and cures has been steadily reduced, reworked, capped, and selectively removed since EQ's release in 1999. What is being experienced on TLP servers now is nothing like actual in-era hate mechanics.

Yw

Thank you.

That would quite neatly explain why warriors didn't complain about it initially (enough to save it from the dev axe, or me hear about it).

And explain how the problem happened organically over time (with warriors airing their complaints I'm sure).

And also how it wasn't broken in classic.