Hadden (and respecting camps)

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment.

You were at a camp. You spent an unknown amount of time there. Druid wants the camp but you are there first. Druid does not know if you have been there for ten minutes, ten hours, ten days or ten weeks.

Druid logs. Comes back the next day and sees you there. Druid doesn't know if you just logged in before him. He might believe that you are one of those people who are going to "claim" a camp for infinity and no one will ever get the item from the camp he wants. If the Druid thinks that, what do you expect the Druid to do? Give you Kronos for the item? Just say OK I will never get this item O well woe is me?

TLP servers specifically say there is no camps. They specifically abide by a "Most DPS wins loot" mentality. The Druid, within the parameters of EQ game rules, did nothing wrong as far as the actions. The words that were exchanged may have crosses lines, only you and the Druid and whomever looks at undoctored logs will know. But you are upset cause someone did not respect an imaginary camp that does not even exist. That is on you.

Now having said all that, I have always respected camps. And I do think what the Druid did was morally and ethically wrong. But you chose a TLP so you chose the toxicity that comes with those servers. It is why I have never stepped foot on them. Live players, for the overwhelmingly majority of situations, respect others. You will not find that on TLP.

Hyperbole much?

I would say the majority of players, TLP or Live, are respectful. It's always the bad apples that make it look worse than it is.

I'd like to think that this was true. For the most part it is. I sat at one of the bodyguard spawns in Droga for 4 or 5 hours last weekend. I had to threaten one Krono farming box crew with a report for calling me names. They didn't back off until I asked if they had been banned before, implying that the next one would probably be lengthy. I had 3 others come to my little slice of Droga and were upset when I used language that only a native American English speaker would use to tell them that they weren't interrupting a foreign farmer. They were mad because they have some sort of "code" that wouldn't allow them to interfere with a guy that just wanted a circlet for personal use. Then the farmer woke up and invaded my camp. I know, there's no such thing, stuff it. I was told that these 2 necros with random mashed keyboard names usually bring a couple mages too when they get too much competition.

If we're going to go with DPS wins mentality, we should open it up even more and when someone invades and out DPSs you, you should be able to "pull" for them until they can no longer out DPS the mobs.

This would just result in the necros training people out of camps instead of dps racing them out of camps. That sort of thing happens enough as it is, no thanks.

Some people respect camps on TLPs and some don't. Thats just how the game is played now. But I have noticed a lot of the time people do respect camps you just sometimes get an who doesn't.

No, no. It would only be allowed in retaliatory circumstances. I'm lobbying to rename the act Retaliatory Overpulling. Preemptive Overpulling would still be bad.

There's no such thing as camps. I'm only asking that there be no such thing as trains when someone takes your not-a-camp.

This is not a Rizlona issue, it's an Everquest issue. All the servers share a similar amount of toxicity reports at the moment with the exception of Aradune, where the toxic behavior is off the scale.

Coirnav was the same. Might have been worse, actually.

How is this toxic behavior? Since you are able to log in while working and thus have the most time to sit there you automatically get the "camp"?

Id say your entitlement is toxicity.

@Fizon

Do you understand what entitlement means? When you are in a lineup for tickets to a concert, and you are the 10th person in line but there are only 9 tickets, do you expect one of the people in that lineup to automatically give it to you?

If your answer is yes to this scenario, then that is indicative of entitled behaviour. It disrespects the other 9 people before you who were standing in that lineup before you arrived. It is toxic because it wilfully disrespects the rights of others by assuming your needs are more important than theirs.

The fact that a person has two computers, or is able to work and do something mundane like camp Hadden while working does not make a person entitled, it makes them privileged. Behaviour determines entitlement, not privilege. Being privileged isn't toxic. While privilege may sometimes accompany entitlement, this isn't always the case. Some of the world's greatest philanthropists are extremely privileged, yet they give so much good back to the world, and this action of extreme giving is the furthest thing from what one can call toxic.

Had I shown up to that camp this morning and found another person sitting there, I would have respected that person's intent to camp and the fact that they were there first, and come back another time. This is called common decency, courtesy, and respect for the common rights of others by treating others the same way that I would like to be treated. It is the opposite of entitlement, and how many computers I have or whether I can camp while working or not has no bearing whatsoever on my choice of behaviour, which would be to respect the rights of others.

Yeah but this isn't the line at ticket master. Also what are you doing in line for concert tickets there's a pandemic if you haven't heard.

This is one spawn that drops an item wanted by many. You want it? Fight for it. This is how eq works now. Truthfully this is how eq always worked.

I demand justice, lets gather in Qeynos for a fiery but mostly peaceful protest.

Burn it all to the ground!

I will give you this: Part of the original EQ experience, for some people, was the privilege of getting fired after their boss caught them playing EQ on the job...

Yeah, hard pass.

If you think DPG could fairly arbitrate when it is legitimate to retaliate, then you've missed why there isn't a pnp anymore in the first place. And cheaters would just find a way to legitimize their train as retaliation.

I guess it's a good thing that I am self employed then eh? I suppose I can fire myself... but ultimately 20 seconds to kill a singular mob that spawns every 5 hours isn't really hurting my bottom line much, especially when the rest of the time there is literally nothing else to do.

Most of us are mature adults now, and can exercise good judgement in matters like this. I say most because, well, the fact that this post needed to happen in the first place...

Except that this thread didn't need to happen. Several veteran players have explained to you that the PNP policy you so fondly remember is long gone, and there is no such thing as "camps". It's your mistake, not anyone else's, that you didn't understand the published game rules. The points you try to make have been argued over and over in literally hundreds of other threads going back many years; the publisher of EQ has ruled on these issues, and it's final. You are no obligation to play if you don't like those rules.

And you're way way off if you think the majority of online game players are mature adults. You can take your pick of any major online gaming service and see wave after wave of toxicity; EQ isn't even close to the worst, in part because the company will enforce persistent harassment violations. So for the minimal stuff you described in the OP, it's either develop a thick skin and have lots of patience, or let them disrupt your sanity. A few posts on a gaming forum will change none of that.

There is a good deal more maturity, on average, and less toxicity, on average, if you play on a Live server vs. a TLP. You have that other option as well.

@Captain Video

Some of us still have faith that there is room for positive change. Not all of the modifications to this game are improvements. If it were 'perfect', then there would be no need for a staff or development team at all, would there?

As someone who played this game at launch and has experienced years of P99, I can say from experience that there certainly is room for improvement here in the area of social community building.

Just like everyone else posting in this thread, I have a right to express my opinion and make my own choices in terms of how I spend my free time. No amount of belittling, blame shifting, minimizing, or projection of issues identified here and in countless other threads is going to change my mind, or my choice of how I spend my free time. I have a voice, and a right to use it, just like everyone else.

I expect not everyone will agree with my perspective, (particularly those who belong to the antisocial category). I know from my own sample size of community that I am involved with that there is a strong dislike for this kind of behaviour. I also know that problems associated with people like this has contributed to the attrition of some very good friends and quality players in my own guild environment. Antisocial types can be extremely off-putting, in a number of very unhealthy ways, and you are right, many make the choice to leave and do something else because of it.

MMO's are social, and a lot of people returned to this game at the rise of COVID-19 in the absence of being able to physically socialize with others. There is a very different feel to the community today than what it was 20 years ago, and I feel that lack of any kind of 'PNP' rulesets or enforcement is one of the biggest contributors to this issue. Trust of the 'other' is diminished because of the antisocial types who abuse others and are evidently very proud of the fact that they can get away with what they do. We have seen this behaviour in this very thread alone, and we have all certainly experienced it in-game.

Today, there is a natural, almost automatic distrust for others, and often players 'expect' others to be selfish or nasty rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt. It's pretty sad when we are surprised when someone actually responds to a tell, or interacts in a healthy, friendly, or respectful way.

Yes, I'd like to see a healthier community. Who wouldn't?

They literally called it "a server for people who want to bot" and "the botting server" in the leaked planning discord. That was their actual name for it, before Rizlona. They repeatedly asked what ruleset would most appeal to botters.

Pretending otherwise is disingenuous.

Also, grats on being the 1,000,000th pee-nine-nine-er to show up and give a sanctimonious ramblefap about how amoral and terrible the world is and how DPG has greatly endangered your ~2 months of time paying an actual subscription before you flounce back off to the golden wonderland that is the 4chan of everquest servers.

Fascinating. Is there a link to the aforementioned Discord?