Paladins the new Battle Cleric

Discussion in 'Priests' started by allureic, Aug 19, 2020.

  1. allureic New Member

    with the group heals, hot heals, and instant cast big boy heals like burst of waking, mix in our aa heals, we can out heal most classes while tanking or offtanking. time for us paladins to rise up and take over the healing world.... All 2.3 of us lol
    Cuuthbert likes this.
  2. Pano Augur

    I think you meant that you can out heal druids, that's about it. If you out heal a shaman or a cleric, the problem resides with the player being out healed and not the class itself.

    Paladins can definitely be in this forum, they are great healers.
  3. Fenthen aka Rath

    On a healing parse, Paladins can easily break into the Top 10.
    If I maintank (like on Griklor) then I'm generally Top 3 for heals.
  4. Pano Augur

    That's because of alliance, the same things happens with warriors.
    Raccoo and Szilent like this.
  5. Fenthen aka Rath

    No, it has nothing to do with alliance. It's the insane amount of heal procs, ToT heal spell casts, etc.
    I also MT Griklor with a 2h'er, so I sit in the top 10-15 for DPS as well. On one or two of the drops I'll break into Top 3 (thanks, Valorous Rage).
  6. Raccoo Augur

    Yeah, would like to see a heal breakdown for that. You didn't even mention splashing? Idk if it is that much for paladin's, but for clerics/shaman splashes are a big boost to their overall heal parse.
  7. Szilent Augur

    If you see a difference (you started off with saying you see a difference) between your MT healing output and your assist healing output : That's Alliance.
    German likes this.
  8. German Augur

    Just to be sure, they are talking about Ancient Alliance, or in some guilds the might be doing cleric or druid.

    Break down your healing on a full named encounter and look at what's healing who and how and alliance should be the number one method of healing for you. The only time we see anyone in the top ten other than clerics and shaman is whoever had alliance on them and it actually fulminating.

    Also make sure whoever is reporting the numbers and breakdowns has all healing turn on, remember Heal over Time is a significant amount of healing done and if you have that off you might not be seeing the entire picture.
  9. Pano Augur

    In his defence though, melee heals while tanking does make better parses which could account for the difference, especially tanking with a 2h, but unless we see an actual parse like this:

    Combined (210): Derakor the Vindicator in 3734s, Paladin's Top Heals, 1. Melee Heal = 6.69M | 2. Gift of Life = 4.01M | 3. Blessed Guardian Heal = 2.12M | 4. Healing Light = 1.78M | 5. Blessing of the Ancients = 960.23K | 6. Hand of Piety = 888.77K | 7. Splash of Exaltation = 508.36K | 8. Vector of Health = 457.77K | 9. Remote Healing Blessing = 432.49K | 10. Blessing of Life = 396.30K

    We can't really be sure.
  10. StiTch.ed Journeyman

    Speaking as someone that's played a clr since the start and dabbled in the pally quite a bit, I'mma throw in my 2cp that pure healers have evolved beyond spamming heals. When you can keep up with the mitigation buffs, reverse DS/heal DS, epic clicky, pre-emptive heals, in-combat rezzing/buffing (because if no-one died in your raid then discussions about optimal play are irrelevant) etc. etc. we can talk about pallys actually replacing healers.

    Pure spam healing figures just wouldn't prove anything even if you could keep up with them.
  11. Allayna Augur

    We did split the raid into 3 tonight, 18 in each raid and did some type 19 farming and luck aug farming.

    Healing Summary
    /GU Combined: A restless kobold in 5499s, 397.8m AH | Cleric 138.3m AH | Allayna 54773k AH | Cleric 46897k AH | Shadowknight 46621k AH | Shaman 36367k AH | Paladin 20576k AH | Warrior 15170k AH | Druid 8643k AH

    Tanking Summary
    Name,Damage
    Combined: A restless kobold,15212025239
    Allayna,113102363
    Shadowknight,91715039
    Warrior,58664810
    Paladin,41273181

    The formatting is terrible to copy from the parser for this:
    % Player > Heal > Over Heal > HPS > SHPS > Secs > # of Heals > Max Heal > Avg Heal > Avg Crit > Avg Lucky > % OH > % Crit > % Luck > % TC
    Allayna 100 54830252 36351382 14779 9725 3710 2394 320225 22903 34745 38228 66.3 34.96 17.08 0.67

    Blessed Guardian Heal III 14.99 8216445 5808759 12226 2214 672 171 184318 48049 53400 57475 70.7 66.67 38.01 -

    Melee Heal 13.72 7520806 3599223 9831 2027 765 634 148869 11862 0 0 47.86 - - -

    Healing Light XXVI 12.17 6671446 3697527 4866 1798 1371 170 115703 39243 44396 49875 55.42 51.76 24.12 -

    Burst of Wakening Rk. III 10.23 5610066 11994453 4059 1512 1382 85 210134 66000 70151 59153 213.8 61.18 34.12 2.35

    Valiant Healing III Caza 8.71 4775518 1948951 3645 1287 1310 116 101792 41168 49559 52454 40.81 54.31 25.86 4.31

    Dissident Force Healing 6 6.92 3792587 3459610 2220 1022 1708 82 169554 46251 46350 60853 91.22 60.98 30.49 -

    Blessing of the Ancients II 5.01 2748533 494880 1886 740 1457 266 23864 10332 0 0 18.01 - - -

    Gift of Life IX 3.68 2018211 1252082 25874 543 78 39 234000 51749 67426 49876 62.04 79.49 33.33 -

    Vector of Health 3.57 1954924 257821 1130 526 1729 95 64452 20578 25839 25270 13.19 58.95 27.37 -

    Preservation of the Grotto Effect III 2.84 1557561 98825 2136 419 729 183 19793 8511 10796 12277 6.34 56.83 21.31 -

    Shining Health Caza VI 2.41 1323873 101891 1341 356 987 115 22566 11511 12566 15478 7.7 66.09 35.65 -

    Hand of Holy Wrath VII Recourse 2.37 1300955 125568 1297 350 1003 112 64233 11615 13329 16308 9.65 58.93 27.68 -

    Protective Consecration Rk. III 2.29 1253411 915718 2984 337 420 21 146117 59686 56371 85409 73.06 61.9 23.81 -

    Blessing of Life XXVI 1.86 1022190 436680 2388 275 428 46 73454 22221 26629 27627 42.72 58.7 30.43 -

    Armor of Sincerity Heal III 1.85 1016498 162775 9774 273 104 43 40351 23639 27001 28929 16.01 51.16 37.21 18.6

    Divine Balance 1.28 702157 0 3510 189 200 62 320225 11325 0 0 - - - -

    Concordant Light III 1.28 701575 87979 3525 189 199 34 71487 20634 28793 20080 12.54 58.82 14.71 -

    Holy Soothing 1.27 696036 402365 1669 187 417 45 42516 15467 16753 21115 57.81 53.33 26.67 -

    Hand of Piety XL 1.18 646688 664381 15397 174 42 12 139203 53890 53296 85690 102.74 50 16.67 -

    Remote Healing Blessing 0.67 366143 5211 1130 98 324 29 61533 12625 20393 14160 1.42 48.28 24.14 -

    Soothing Zeal 0.54 294471 87570 8923 79 33 11 34731 26770 0 0 29.74 - - -

    Splash of Exaltation Rk. III 0.52 284357 240241 35544 76 8 7 66929 40622 0 35579 84.49 57.14 57.14 14.29

    Reverent Reflection III 0.36 196783 228901 196783 53 1 2 143767 98391 98391 0 116.32 100 - -

    Shining Health Beza VI 0.18 100517 12299 4188 27 24 8 25302 12564 18378 20717 12.24 37.5 25 -

    Marr's Gift IV 0.04 23929 226650 23929 6 1 1 23929 23929 0 23929 947.18 100 100 -

    Armor of Steadfast Grace Rk. III 0.04 23488 41022 5872 6 4 4 5872 5872 0 0 174.65 - - -

    Unending Affirmation Reflection III 0.02 11084 0 11084 2 1 1 11084 11084 0 11084 - 100 100 -

    You'll note that Alliance was the 7th most healing on my parse. Blessed Guardian was #1 and SK epic was #2. SK epic is underlined.

    Hope that helps break down tanking/healing numbers for those wanting the info.
  12. Allayna Augur

    Nothing stops a “Paladins the new battle cleric” thread like showing with a parse that the SK epic out performs every ability in a Paladin healing arsenal save 1.
    Dracolindus and Pano like this.
  13. MagicMysteryTour Journeyman

    Did you factor in the impact of Armor of the Inquisitor and Group Armor of the Inquisitor?
  14. Allayna Augur

    Factor in...? The increased healing of 65% or 75% would be evident in the parse, the one that’s posted above. So even with Paladin aura and use of AoTI/GAoTI, we still have a class with an epic that out heals everything a Pally is doing, minus Blessed Guardian.
  15. MagicMysteryTour Journeyman

    Its baked in those numbers but if you factor 65% for Groups uptime and 75% for regular inquis over that duration I would bet they now become your number 1 and 2 impact items, they just hide which is what I meant be factor for. Blessed would likely drop below epic on just its own.

    Would also seem at that duration that sk epic lined up at least sometimes with holyforge and pureforge uses. 5 minute melee discs under epic with slays counting as melee can lead to some pretty big numbers as all pallies have seen in ToV especially if they get a bard or more support.
  16. Allayna Augur

    I'd venture to argue that increasing incoming healing 65-75% isn't as powerful as you are making it out to be.

    Combined (386): a ghostly scholar in 5638s, Allayna's Top Heals, 1. Blessed Guardian Heal = 8.22M | 2. Melee Heal = 7.52M | 3. Healing Light = 6.67M | 4. Burst of Wakening = 5.61M | 5. Valiant Healing III Caza = 4.78M | 6. Dissident Force Healing = 3.79M | 7. Blessing of the Ancients = 2.75M | 8. Gift of Life = 2.02M | 9. Vector of Health = 1.95M | 10. Preservation of the Grotto Effect = 1.56M

    In that time I only hit AoTI 6 times and GAoTI 3 times.

    1. Blessed Guardian 6 times. It proc'd 395 times. (Passive) 14.99% total healing

    2. SK epic was 11 times. It proc'd 265 times. (Passive) 13.72% total healing

    3. Healing Light Proc'd 62 times. Sincere Force was cast 346 times, Force of the Jade Cohort 94 times. Dissident Force 95 times. I want to highlight this aspect because the Healing Light is listed as an AA that has a 20% proc rate. 346 + 94 + 95 = 535 stuns cast x 0.2 = 107 so the Healing Light AA is far under performing it's intended 20% proc rate. 62 out of 535 is 11.5% a terribly low proc rate for a listed 20%. (Mixed passive on spam active ability) 12.17% total healing

    4. Burst of Wakening 229 times. (Active) 10.23% total healing
    5. Valiant Diversion 354 times. (Active) 8.71% total healing
    6. Dissident Force 95 times. (Active) 6.92% total healing

    7. Ancient Alliance 12 casts on me. It proc'd 130 times. (Mixed passive on active spam healing from others) 5.01% total healing

    8. Gift of Life 4 times. It healed 46 times. (Activated) 3.68% total healing
    9. Vector of Health proc'd 95 times. (Passive) 3.57% total healing
    10. Preservation of the Grotto Effect proc'd 183 times. It was cast 8 times. (Passive) 2.84% total healing

    For completeness I'll add other abilities I used but didn't even make the top 10 for healing on myself. Also, I bolded abilities above that are other casters such as the SK epic and the Shaman Alliance spells.

    Armor of Sincerity 4 times. It proc'd a heal 32 times. (Disc, Passive) 1.85% total healing
    Protective Consecration 69 times. (Active) 2.29% total healing
    Blessing of Life 172 times. Proc on melee (Passive) 1.86% total healing
    Concordant Blessing cast 5 times, Concordant Light proc 80 times. (Active from other's heals) 1.28% total healing
    Hand of Piety 2 times. (Activated Group heal + HoT) 1.18% total healing

    Allayna

    % Player
    72.21

    Heal
    39594499

    Over Heal
    26961540

    HPS
    12012

    SHPS
    10672

    Secs
    3296

    # of Heals
    1697

    Max Heal
    234000

    Avg Heal
    23332

    Avg Crit
    35624

    Avg Lucky
    38781

    % OH
    68.09

    % Crit
    35.36

    % Luck
    16.91

    % TC
    0.88

    I'll highlight the important data from that parse above. The max heal was only 234K, the over healing was almost 27 million and made up 68% of the healing performed. So 68% of the healing did 0 healing. Please continue to say that GAoTI and AoTI 65-75% increase on incoming heals is the most useful ability in our arsenal now when 68% of all healing is over healing.

    Let's hope they make some adjustments to the way healing is in the future, there is currently an abundance of over healing to the tune of 68% of all healing.
  17. Wulfhere Augur

    Good points.

    Over healing is a consequence of proactive healing, which is a caused by hyper damage rates relative to hit point pools. As long as players cannot wait even 1 second to see what is happening then they have to be overly proactive. The pace of combat has spiraled out of control.
    Ezbro and Allayna like this.
  18. Maedhros High King

    None of the things mentioned here are new.
    The only new healing tricks paladins have got in the last half dozen years are the worst dicho spell in the game, and Gift of Life, which kicks butt.
    All the other things you mentioned:
    have all been around for years.
    Burst spells are not instant unless you have quicktime on, but they definitely are fast nonetheless. They pay for it with the long-ish cool downs.
    So, uh, welcome to the class I guess?

    I rez people when they die, otherwise I am a tank first, a dps class second, and a poor replacement for an actual healer last.
    The class is definitely not a battle cleric.
  19. Wulfhere Augur

    Don't forget Hand of Tunare AA for activated twin heals.

    I personally don't think paladins are battle clerics because we lack their canonical ADPS. The only area where paladins meaningfully improve the performance of their group is: HP and (maybe) AC. The paladin is selfish with all their other buffs. This is the opposite of a battle cleric.

    Now, if the undead debuffs from the Last Rights and Annihilate the Undead lines were stronger and more consistently applied, and Helix of the Undying had a stronger AC debuff in slot 4, ... then that could indirectly be some reasonable ADPS. To do that, paladins would need upgraded undead Triggers (e.g. Requiem Trigger) and upgrades to Annihilate Weakness, maybe via focus AA. Both would need higher chances to cast so they are applied much more reliably. I.e. the point of the spell is not so much the nuke, but the SPA 340 casts of undead debuffs. As things stand now, the Annihilate line is so bad for paladins it's been discontinued.

    If paladins had these types of improvements, I would consider them "battle cleric vs undead".
  20. Szilent Augur

    Magician & bard progressive spells are substantially worse than Pal instant group heal + agro. Paladin one isn't valuable to spam on cool down like some others are, but neither is it unique in its "cast it when it's good" category.