Wizard Class Leader?

Discussion in 'Casters' started by Aztaar, Jul 27, 2020.

  1. Skvoid Elder

    I raid as a Wizard and the only benefit I can see to being one is I rarely die because of nexus gate. DPS is a bit depressing it's not bad but it's not anywhere near being the top or so bad that guilds don't want you but as others have mentioned Necros out burn and out sustain us (and everyone else) Druids can outburn us with a good group setup (Still don't understand why druids can do so much dmg as a healer class) and so on with the melee classes. We feel very bland and not very fun to play currently and I don't play much at the moment because of this.
    menown likes this.
  2. menown Augur

    The pendulum of class balance will continuously swing. Wizards need not be so stubborn about asking for more utility for times when they are on the opposite side of the pendulum. Then the class wouldn't be so depressing to play.
    Bleve and -----Cinexa----- like this.
  3. Cragzop Cranky Wizard


    Stubborn about utility? When?

    The only primary utility we've had since day one is ports. And it's pretty clear we get what we get on that front...sometimes they are decent and sometimes they go to Esianti. Last n expansions have showed us that making the clicky/neighborhood portal thing the best possible port device to sell more upscale expansions is a thing. After they gave us the Skyfire port, I've stopped caring about what we get.

    We root and snare ... so do a bunch of other classes .. which we use when we can. We have runes which are great to survive an accidental hit or a round of aes, but we aren't going to tank anything and we're still going to need heals (and pretty much all int casters get anyway).

    Don't confuse being stubborn about utility with being realistic about some of the far fetched ideas that sometimes get pumped out from folks. There hasn't been a meaningful aa expansion in an expansion since EoK (and really, a lot of those were no thought spell focus aas) ... it's pretty much been cookie cutter ever since. Same with spells. And we have probably the two worst combined covenant/dissident lines when looked at together over what you would normally cast instead of those. If the developers came out tomorrow and asked classes about ideas, I'm sure the wizard community would have plenty. But they haven't asked for them, they haven't done any new stuff in years, and given their recent staffing changes, no one should count on extra time to do things like this until resources are thrown at this issue..

    At the moment, we're basically big proc machines. Right now, I bet most of us run 35-40% proc damage on raids (higher side when we have bards and meleeing). Look at the other classes in a raid parse ... no other class comes close to relying so much on procs for damage. Coupled with the ... I'll go ahead and say ridiculous ... unbalanced damage ticks from dots these days, our nukes just aren't that impressive anymore. Quick scan of last cycle's damage logs show myself with 78 hits of 3M or more, top druid had 90, top necro 122, and top zerker 75 (and I probably missed some).

    Wizards are wizards cause they want to go boom boom and big boom (and maybe port if been around a long time). If we wanted other stuff, we would have rolled/switch classes a long time ago. If you have some suggestions about wizard utility, list them. But your statement is meaningless and about as least helpful as you can possibly be for the wizard community.
  4. I-WANT-IT-NOW Augur

    Years ago but many betas with Elidroth started with I am not giving out any dps AA and for sure those years many classes worked with that and got extra stuff. Those same years many wizards and berserkers basically told him dps or shove it to the point he would shut down and say ok then fudge you.
    Ninelder, Marton and menown like this.
  5. menown Augur

    Maybe it is you, and a select few others who I'm addressing. You are stubborn about utility because you have a fear that it will be used against you when potentially addressing DPS priorities. I agree with both the sentiment and the evidence that wizards are behind with DPS balance. They should be identical to berzerkers for burst and sustained in my opinion.

    The quote that I was addressing in particular was "We feel bland and not very fun to play currently". I was addressing this comment by saying DPS balance changes. Wizards will be on top again at some point, and then they will fall again at some point. During the times when wizards are under-performing, utility can increase the desire-ability of the class.

    Some utility specifics that come to my mind (non-dps related):
    1. Increase spell cast range by X for Y seconds
    2. Allow spells to instant cast and increase damage by X while increasing the global cooldown by a factor of X times the current spell's cast time
    3. Self-only reverse CotH to group member
    4. Use endurance pool instead of mana for spells for X seconds
    5. Netherstep a friendly unit a short distance and a mem wipe for your target
    6. Ethereals can prevent non-raid or uniquely named NPCs from summoning for X seconds
    I guess I'm just trying to think of ways of making the wizard class more fun to play. I know that there is intrinsic value in just looking at big numbers on a DPS parse, but the realization is class balance changes from year to year.
    shiftie likes this.
  6. Cragzop Cranky Wizard


    Point 1 - If berserkers were many of the folks that told him dps or shove it, how come they were not affected? Your point is kinda lost ...

    Point 2 - How long ago was this? Years ago for EQ players could be the OoW era ... which was 16 YEARS AGO.

    I really wish people would not bring up old things without context. This is an old game. Rain of Fear was almost 8 years ago, yet people still bring up things during then like it was yesterday. Most of the modern betas have the developers listening to selected things they want to and pretty much ignoring everything else.
  7. I-WANT-IT-NOW Augur


    Berserkers also lack depth. If your talking dps a lot of their crazy came from a new disc which is aristo and was changed.

    Elidroth tells you it was at a few years ago which is when lots of depth classes came to have happened. Correct after that ship sailed these days your stuck with limited time devs knowing best but it’s still your own doing as a class.
  8. shiftie Augur

    Speaking as someone who participated heavily in those developer chats using paladins as an example. If paladins had only focused on healing or tanking we would still be the bland class we were for years. The class plays completely different now and utility solved this. Going boom is great but it only takes you so far. It is a zero sum situation if you go boom great but when you can’t not very fun. Which is what I think the point was. Now the classes that gained utility or had it to begin with also gained dps and the wizard class is wildly bland. It’s a shame really. Best of luck getting whatever it is that makes the general wizard population happy.
    Magneress and menown like this.
  9. Szilent Augur

    I'm curious now what class you play, what depth you think it has, and how you think that depth came about.

    separately:

    The wizard class, to me, has a ton of intricacy & depth to the *play*. Playing A Wizard is real cool. It's just that the effort of being good isn't justified & supported by the basic numbers
  10. Cragzop Cranky Wizard

    I have enough utility. When the devs work to have new zones work with existing utilities (like non-summoning mobs, non-snare/root resistant mobs, bindable locations, open-ish spaces in zones, etc.), I'm pretty happy with how I get to play (how long it takes me to kill things ... different issue). ToV has a decent amount of those. Maybe the trend will continue. TBL and RoS were not very friendly so one expansion is not a trend.

    But, you did provide some examples so:

    1 - Can honestly say I've never, ever had the thought ... if only my range was this much more, I'd be having more fun. Spell range is pretty good as it is.

    2 - So ... you think it would be fun to ... cast an instant spell, then do nothing for a chunk of time? We can already do this ... we have an instant line (even a beam for ae). I've kited before solely using instant cast spells. It's not very fun after you've done it once. I'm guessing the way you tried to write it would imply that the total damage doesn't increase ... if so, why would I go a certain way to limit options when I can just do it the normal way?

    3 - I have no idea why this would ever get used ... I'm the one who generally ports the group places. Pretty sure the heads of mages would explode if we got this.

    4 - They've never crossed this line before. I'm not opposed, but I would think they would have a hybrid get this ability or make it generic. I cannot imagine wizards getting this as a class ability and only us.

    5 - What my quoted piece was all about. They have decided the fade issue. We're not a fade class (hence our 10m timer for A Hole In Space). Why keep beating a dead horse issue?

    6 - So, I could get on board with this (I'm not sure if you were meaning to add to the line of spells or have an aa add an ability to said spells ... either way). I assume that you are meaning that in a two spell Ethereal weave, we could keep a mob from summoning indefinitely as the prevent time would be at least 4 sec (Ethereal cast is a little less than 2, global cool down is as much as 1.8 seconds for me in a populated/laggy zone). If the mob isn't snare/rootable, I'm not sure what this changes as kiting mobs with ethereals is not very fun at all. I guess you could form a range dps group easier without a tank. As far as I know, this is a complete new code ability. So you are at the mercy of what can be done in code.

    This is one of those things that sounds great on paper, until you go to use it and realize that it's not worth the trouble. But I'd take a look at the idea at least.

    Again, we have utilities. Heck, we have 25 spell lines listed in the focus tab. But the developers have decided through artificial constructs to limit most of these (it makes zero sense to cast a spell line if another is just better every single time due to twincast limitations, critical limitations, target limitations, etc.). We're not bland because we don't have things. We're bland because we're not stupid enough to use sub par spells and abilities and play styles.

    All wizards would like more damage. At least this wizard would be fine with a concentrated effort to make choosing spell lineups more difficult for us because there wasn't just a best way to do things. I fear that we aren't going to get that until the developers see the disconnect in their recent changes between damage over time vs direct damage ... and then spell vs melee damage ... and castable spell vs proc damage ...
    Mongol311 and menown like this.
  11. menown Augur

    I was thinking of some raid events, like Derakor or Servant of the Sleeper, where the caster may benefit from not moving as much.

    In this case, some event mechanics require the player to move around a lot. You could have this ability going and move around, supplementing your dead time with clickies.

    I don't see this as a mage ability. Mages are the masters of summoning. Reverse CotH is essentially a port, and directly in line with wizards. Whenever a wizard joins a group that is in a dungeon, they can just port directly to their groupmates.

    I think of wizards exerting both mental and physical energy when casting spells. A wizard that is truely exhausted is one that is physically and mentally exhausted. This type ability has the bonus of use during mana draining events. Shamans and Necros already use spirtitual channeling and blood magic when everyone else is completely drained of mana.

    I have found very few mobs that are not snare/rootable in ToV, outside of raid instances. Each expansion is different though.
  12. Mookus Augur

    It’s so bad that we’ve been conditioned to be afraid to ask for utility or depth because we think we only have one iota of class balance effort to spend. And yes our dps is the most important thing so.... better not bring anything else up!

    Better dps is the most important aspect of wizard need for sure.

    But as someone above points out, classes with loads of utility now can out dps us also! Winning!!!

    Here’s yet another radical utility idea I’ve thought of though. I would like to be able to tank stuff like melee or pet classes can. Via a spell or something that must be recast at a small sacrifice to dps. Like a counter point to not having pets charm or armor. Our runes should do this but they last half a round of melee hits (astonishing to me).

    But of course I know very little thought or effort into bringing that class balance pendulum back into the wizard arena after so many years will occur and agree that our pittance Shouldn’t be spent on things other than dps.
    Ezbro likes this.
  13. kizant Augur

    Wizards are one dimensional but that's the whole point. They used to be good for DPS on raids and every other aspect of the game you'd be better off with another class. Between TBM and RoS with a lot of work you could at least sorta compete on raids so I didn't mind too much and I'd generally ignore the various broken classes you'd see every expansion. But at this point I can't even say there's a competition and giving the class 'utility' isn't a solution. If you want to play a utility class there's plenty of other better options to pick from.

    Besides. Not every class needs to be able to tank named, self heal, self cure, have good mana recovery, the highest sustained dps, highest burns dps, multiple ways to avoid dying/lose aggro, and multiple ways to crowd control. I'd rather leave that to the few special classes in the game.
    Mongol311 and Ezbro like this.
  14. shiftie Augur

    I always liked the Skyrim style runes on the ground. Would be a nice flavor if wizards could front load an event or encounter with various trap runes. Would work well for raids and make kiting interesting.

    I also always thought they should get the slow push (opposite of lurch) that keeps a mob out of melee range tethered to the wizard allowing them to Cc or solo.
  15. Ezbro Elder

    I'd be very surprised if the devs need any help figuring out how to balance up the wizard. It's so easy! SO EASY! Higher damage spells for less mana. Make sure we outdamage all hybrids and utility classes. Fix completed!
    Chanteren and Mongol311 like this.
  16. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    Lol they gave us traps...it didn't even kill a Freeport bat....no thanks we are a DD class.
    Mongol311 likes this.
  17. shiftie Augur

    So if they gave you a 5 mil explosive that can’t crit you’d say no? Ok
  18. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    Will it kill a Freeport rat?

    They give us decent stuff but then they put stupid restrictions on it. :rolleyes:

    One of wizzies main issues at the moment is resist rates.
    Mongol311 likes this.
  19. Fabulous_Povar New Member

    Wizard can self heal with procs if you utilize bandolier and also try out Teenta's ranged aug.
  20. kizant Augur

    Yeah. Using max life tap procs I can wiz tank TBM mobs. It's pretty op.