Seriously, don't make a rogue.

My argument is still make a rogue if you want. Are you the most useful class. not really.

Will 3 enchanter groups kill faster then you.... yes

will it ULTIMATELY matter. no

There are VERY few zones in classic especially that can support the "just bring 3 charmers" group. There just arent enough mobs. Mobs are the bottleneck with a classic start, not dps.

I have started rogue on TLP servers before, and I got groups. It wasnt hard, I just made friends in my groups, did as much as humanly possible, and eventually would get tells to join groups within 10-15 minutes of logging in.

This is my experience as well. If you are a pleasant person to group with and can play your class reasonably well, what class you play shouldn't impact you on getting groups that much. Not going to lie and say I never had any downtime but it did seem to be restricted mostly to the 40+ period when you've outleveled a lot of the server so there just aren't a lot of groups to be had.

Also dont be lazy and expect to get reinvited to a group if you dont actually make an effort to have decent gear.

This really goes for any class. Have invited people to my group in the upper 20's who are still wearing cloth/leather, using their newbie weapon and might even have empty slots.

You cant tell me you didnt make enough money to buy a few pieces of ringmail/banded and a FS weapon or better off of someone. Or even just a merchant upgrade.

Any rogue in his 20's who hasn't at least camped the dervs in sro for a dragoon dirk so he has a decent low level magic weapon is just being lazy or hasn't played in so long that they are ignorant of the opportunity.

Commonlands

• Dragoon Zytl (Levels: 28 - 30)

Crushbone

• Ambassador DVinn (Level: 19)
• The Fabled Ambassador Dvinn (Level: 30)

Firiona Vie

• Dragoon M`Nyl (Level: 50)

Nektulos Forest

• Captain N`Farre (Level: 50)
• Dragoon Tsanne (Level: 34)
• Dragoon V`tai (Level: 33)
• Dragoon X`Lottl (Level: 36)

North Ro

• Dorn B`Dynn (Levels: 16 - 19)

Oggok

• Ambassador K`Ryn (Levels: 24 - 26)

The Overthere

• Dragoon T`Vem (Level: 50)
• Dragoon T`Vex (Level: 50)
• Dragoon V`Lask (Level: 50)
• Dragoon V`Resh (Level: 50)
• General V`Deers (Level: 58)
  
  
  Okay, now tell me. What dervs do you see in SRO?

It's North not South Ro, but otherwise right there on your list. This is, however, one of if not THE most crowded spots on a server launch as its good loot/xp near the most popular meetup for premades (tunnel). Expect it to get swamped even on selo.

I had no problem on previous TLP's. The dirk is lore so never saw it camped much and even could often pick back and forth to camp two spawns.

I ALWAYS saw people hogging dervs on launch day. Not even for the dirk, it was just a swamped spot. Cl orcs got bad too.

played rogue in classic/kunark and back then you were considered the best dps with wizard by most
now to me the reason was this
1.epic was easiest to get.so you got a boost compared to some poorly geared classes
2.most did not know how to dps with their class.back then a chanter was expected to mezz and clairty.nothing else.a good chanter would mezz 2 or 3 mobs.most died if they had to do 2.even if charming was a thing you get some mad cleric shouting to stop it
monks i recall my guild rarely taking more then 1 or 2 to raid since they were meant to pull not dps and of course the fist change thing
Basically the rogue in classic and gameplay remains unchanged but the rest of the classes have either evolved or people just play them better now

Spell damage in classic was lower than it is now, versus weapons on tlps are (at least attempted to be) back at original levels. Further, charm was much less reliable, my assumption is a failsafe such as maybe an mr check must have been added at some point. My original main was a druid, charming animals was wholly unreliable and mostly only good for getting them to hurt each other a bit so they were lower health when it broke. Nothing like my tlp necros where I would solo lguk or chardok with a reliable buddy. Likewise, I made a wizard pre ldon and tried stuff like rains for efficiency and did all the math based on alla/lucy... even with enc and bl mana buffs my dps in a steady group was bad. I was the #2 wiz for a while and my ldon dps would be behind pug rogues.

Melee weren't nerfed and people weren't all just too dumb to play. Casters were buffed. Charm was buffed. Melee were not.

Sure, maybe on launch day. Doubt many rogues will be 20+ at that point though. By the time I hit lvl 16 on Coirnav, that derv camp was usually uncamped.

Also, if it is camped, the Dragoon Dirk is lore so not usually too hard to buy one pretty cheap off of a player at the camp if they want to make room to loot another.

It's not that Rogues are horrible on TLP, it's just that changes to combat on live servers benefited all of the other melee much more on TLP, and Monks won the TLP lottery as a result of them.

Plenty of suggestions have been made to improve them to redress that balance but the devs haven't yet made any changes to melee that help Rogues out, they have made changes that reduced overall melee DPS out put early on already though but it is pretty obvious Rogues are still behind the curve on TLP now and while they absolutely do catch up it takes a while & quite a large number of expansions before they do.

Low level disc changes were probably the most sensible & easy to implement suggestions.
Itemisation change suggestions were also made but those would involve vastly more time & effort to accomplish.

But Don't go thinking Rogues are useless, they aren't, it is still a viable & great class, it has some issues on TLP for sure but they aren't bad enough to choose not to ever play one in my opinion.

Ignore the OP. He was the person who claimed rangers could be top DPS with a bow in classic using hawkeye potions.

Complete idiot.

Every class has a "class budget", i.e., when you get something, you have to give something else up. EQ is built on this. One of the big problems with rogues, is that a lot of their class budget has been made worthless. Getting rid of corpse runs was huge, and I think, a big mistake for the game in general, but it decimated a lot of rogues value. I can remember in actual classic and kunark, when a rogue was incredibly important to have around. When the content was truly difficult, and not getting your body back from way down in somewhere was a real possibility.

Rogues have had a ton of stuff taken away from them, and they are left with really nothing BUT dps at this point, and that's never been the sole focus of the class. It's a horrible oversight on the devs part over time, not to realize that rogues class budget has been chipped away at, without much to replace it.

ALL melee needs to be adjusted for the first 20 levels or so, but especially rogues. Melee should all start at 25 skill and go up from there. Take a level 2 mage, and a level 2 rogue, and just watch the difference in your effectiveness. These are 2 "dps" classes that are so far apart in terms of relative power that it's just laughable. You can kill 10 things with a level 2 mage before you can finish with one mob on a rogue, IF you live through that one mob. Low level melee in general is just horrible, it just happens to follow rogues longer than the other melee.

My main on Aradune is a 46 Rogue.

If you don't have a good amount of time ,patience, and motivation to wait for or build a group. Or have a group of friends that you always group with. I'd suggest playing another class . I've spent 3+ hours LFG many days. Sometimes I've gotten lucky and got a group as soon as I /lfg. I made a druid box so I could duo while LFG .

Rogues, Rock. End of thread.

No they don't. Not ever. After a few expacs, and on a few situational humanoid mobs, where they can backstab reliably, yeah they top parses... but otherwise the best they can do after Kunark is catch up to monk DPS... a bit... whist never ever having monk utility. Once rogues finally do come into their own... berserker class appears and utterly replaces them doing everything better... dps, group and raid utility. So please, don't make threads that undermine the desperate request for balance and bringing rogues into line with other classes. It's the kind of class the devs need to be aware needs attention... at least on TLPs. Sure, rogues DO become "viable" but never ever truly competitive... not in a way that offsets their utter lack of utility... and not for a long time. Rogues do not "rock" and that's why there are so few of them... and why people who box never, ever make a "rogue."

My suggestions for fixing rogue:

A) do not reset the backstab cooldown when you aren't behind the mob, simply give a message, telling you to get beind the mob, and then allowing you to re position and adjust for mob flips, etc

B) pulling mechanic such as "distract" which would act as a lull, you would have to train it, and it would have a certain fail percentage, based on skill, also you would have to make some type of distraction powder, involved in poison making

C) vanish at level 24, 5 min cooldown

I feel like these changes alone would put the rogue as a viable alternative to monk

Is that why none of your listed toons is a rogue... yet you made several berserkers? It's because rogues suck compared to berserkers, who don't even have the behind the back positional limitation, amirite? If rogues don't suck, why aren't you playing one?