Mythbusters TLP Rogue DPS Edition

Epic isn't 23/26. It's 23/28. I know you angrily typed into google "What is the the ratio of monk epic first" and got a Reddit thread from when Ragefire was the new server. But that thread is wrong.

Honest question can you not read or do you just choose not too?
Another question do you know the AC of 63 dummie? Do you know the AC of "A_Velious_era_raid_Mob"? Which is better for a rogue a higher AC target or a lower one?

Love how you shut risiko down immediately and he goes silent.

Guy seriously rubs me the wrong way. Tries so hard to sound like an expert, and frequently embarrasseshimself.

23/26 with epic is fact, backed up by an actual dev. Feel free to find it or live in ignorance, it doesn't matter.

The epic 2

The epic fist is 23/26. This information has not only been parsed out extensively, but was confirmed by a Dev. The fact you are ignorant of this does not surprise me in the least.

Secondly, MoTM and high ac both disproportionately negatively affect rogues. Doing a test on a mob with no armor and no MOTM like your supposed test on trash mobs is largely meaningless.

Third, it is quite possible to get the test dummy AC to be roughly correct. As far as I can tell, when you spawn a test dummy, they have little to no AC. When I was testing epic MH vs Wu's fist of Mastery MH, in order to get the test dummy AC correct, I'd look at my logs of VP dragons on Mangler, get my average hit, and then tune the AC on the test dummies so the average hit matched up. It's not exact, but it's close enough you can at least derive accurate information from it.

If you *actually* cared about testing, you would spent a bit of time and devise something that actually makes sense.

All you've done here is try to comprise a test that fits the narrative you're after. It's hardly compelling.

Finally, it's worth noting that I played a Rogue on Phinny, and then a Monk on Mangler. I don't really have a dog in this fight per se. I'm not angrily doing anything. I just don't like people trying to pass off bad information as fact. Do your testing properly and you'll have no complaints from me.

Cool lets just pretend this is correct. There is no way this makes up for the 25 DPS in the parse and i'm not even really convinced that the better ratio makes up for the lack of proc augs+ the Proc on the weapon itself. It's definitely very very minor difference either way.

Not really the fact that monks have a +20 skill cap and 20 atk / 26 extra accuracy has an impact but you're massively overblowing the difference. For reference Bow using Rangers are actually the most highly affected by high AC but i digress.

Trash mobs matter, the faster you kill the trash the quicker you get to the boss, it's really just as important for anything other then DPS racing in open world on raid targets. It's also much more comparable to how much damage mobs will be taking in your GE AA xp groups or if you race for a group named/key mob ect.

I don't agree with this assessment at all. I think the test dummies have rather high AC for their level compared to normal NToV trash mobs. When it comes to MoTM mobs i can definitely think of multiple mobs that have lower AC then them like BLOB 1 and a few that have much higher like the Cursed Cycle in SSRA.

So again you didn't actually read the OP?

Didn't read the OP. Just read half of it got mad and started furiously typing?

Again it's extremely obvious you didn't read the whole OP and only like the first half and came here fuming doing ironically the thing you're accusing me of doing.

Sorry but monks are better than rogues in classic, with necros being better than both of them.

When rogues get their epic, they can compete, but it's harder, with the backstab cooldown reset if you aren't "behind the mob" and it gets flipped.

By the time velious rolls around rogues are neck and neck with monks.

But as others have mentioned that is not the issue.

Rogues are bad because of outdated utility.

They are built to be scouters and corpse recoverers.

Since it's no longer such a big deal to recover your corpse, that used to have all your items on it, corpse recoverys are no longer a thing. You can just re grind your experience.

Fact of the matter is rogues utility needs to be changed, especially now that summon corpse spell was removed.

Rogues need the following to be "fixed":

1) do not reset the backstab cooldown when you aren't behind the mob, just display a message, and allow rogue to re adjust to land the backstab.

2) give rogues a pulling mechanic , such as distract ( operates like a lull, can fail, and needs to be trained ) AND give them vanish from say lvl 24, on a 5 minute cooldown

That would give them the utility they need to stay in line with monk's usefulness, and offer more variety and incentive for people to play them.

I feel like I've seen this somewhere before...

The bottom line as this thread has pointed out isn't so much that Rogues are underpowered in general, it is that Monks are way overpowered. The relative dps position of each class should be switched. Rogues should be consistently much better dps than monks in every expansion. Rogues would be much easier to fix if Monks were adjusted to their proper dps position among the melees. Instead of leading them they should be a distant second to third.

If only there were about 60x more locked doors. Rogue DPS isn’t the issue in any guild I’ve raided with nearly as much as other key utility. Wizards, monks, and at times rangers all are seen as DPS valuable but most of the time they have increased utility elsewhere. Everyone else buffs, heals, tanks...

I say lock all the doors and suddenly what rogues bring to the party will spike in value. Would also rather see them get some better value from pick pocket in a novel way...pick pocket the boss mob and be able to steal his ability to do x during the raid (cuz you stole his key ingredient)...

Oh well maybe in Pantheon or EQ3 ;P.

Thanks for the attempt ! So many skeptics !

The problem with locked doors is bards do it just as good and bards will always be boxed since they have such high box value. You'll never have a serious guild that has no main bards nor boxed bards. I have been on a number of raids where there is no rogue and nobody even cares.

Given DBG track record, the simplest rogue balance seems to be to tone down other melee or give rogue a small boost. If rogues were consistently at the top of parses that would outweigh their, literal, zero utility in most raids. We aren't going back to corpse runs which, alone, made rogues indispensable.

They don't even need to change some innate melee attributes, just give rogues a single new poison from classic to POP that is a -50 resist poison DD that roughly boosts their dps by 5 to 10%.

If we see this, monks will still have all the incredible useful utility but rogues will be seen as a legitimate top dps rather than some roleplay class or some throwback choice because you played one 20 years ago.

Well the only way to change the rogue class is the make it more like a WoW classic rogue class (not going to happen). LOL those are fun. Somebody mentioned that there are a few closed doors, make more closed doors next expansion lol

I never hear people say Rogue DPS is bad by the time they're BIS Velious geared. People on Rogues during Classic, and the general consensus is that they're perfectly competitive once they get their Epic in Kunark, and T1 DPS by Velious once fully geared.

If you want to bust a myth, parse both in BIS Classic (since that's the actual community stance) gear and check the results. Can't imagine the Monk doesn't blow the Rogue out of the water.

I am not for nerfing the other DPS classes. I am fine with giving rogues additional DPS and even solo options that don’t require massive continual potion/poison use. Up their face to face combat durability some. Rework poisons some. Add in more direct mob debilitating skills that aren’t on long timers. The game is old. Let the rogues have some fun.

It isnt just the epic in kunark, its the fact double backstab becomes a thing at 55 as well. I could argue for moving double backstab to like level 40.

Personally I love rogues, and tbh have never been in a guild that was like nah we are gunna hold out for a monk instead of taking this rogue.

It's funny you mention that because the only guild that raided late enough on Phinny that I could make their raid times was The Broken Wave. I remember checking their recruitment status constantly seeing when rogues were going to change from Closed status to being open.

It was towards the middle of Kunark when they finally decided to open recruitment for rogues. After joining the guild, I found out that entire time they only had 1 rogue in the guild, the guild leaders just thought that rogues sucked so they didn't want anymore. I think it was Farcore that was the one rogue there in the guild that talked them into recruiting more since dps was improving once he was getting geared in Kunark.

He coincidentally rerolled to a zerker on Phinny and I'm in the process of abandoning my rogue today to make a new zerker on Mangler in 37 minutes from now.

epic and double backstab are definitely a huge boost.

As a rogue raiding this expansion that runs parses, we are well behind most casting classes, and monks. I am not seeing monks dominate the parses the way I see wizards doing, but if they are focused on DPS and not pulling then its not a contest.

Made up but representative numbers of our current team parses (non BIS):
Enchanter pets do 5% of the mobs total health (each)
Wizards do about 4-5%
Monks do about 2.5-3%
Rogues do about 1.8%

This looks about right. rogues in classic do have it a bit rough theres no doubt. They get 4 huge boosts in kunark though. Good thing classic is only a small fraction of the actual TLP.

I also am wondering what weapon you are using?

Trident of the Seven Seas is my primary, so definitely not BIS. I expect to hit the 2%-2.5% range with BIS weapons.