Mythbusters TLP Rogue DPS Edition

You understand that the don't play a rogue thing is specifically just a forum joke right?

Well I suppose you didn't know that. Now you're going to double down on this like it's the biggest EQ revelation of 2020.

If we're being honest a wizard with no clarity is the biggest xp leech in classic EQ.

I was in IV during all of the eras minus classic but i can tell you that our MNKs tested the hell out of every weapon from Garns - PoTime every which way and found that and i will ask and see if they still have the parses laying around. *this was on a TLP Phinny* that for a MNK they should not use any weapon until potime Fists + epic is simply better. I would try doing this on test just to see but for w/e reason until shinai of the ancients FISTS + epic is the way to go!

I think just balance the game around the enchanter pet make all melee do more dps then the chanter pet and some how make the other classes on par by improving nukes , pets , or TUNARE forbid a dot revamp

I agree that Rogues suck in Classic. In Classic all melee DPS sucks because of the weapons that exist. Kunark again Monks are definitely better because of the changes to Epic. I don't feel like doing an entire Rogue epic on FV to prove something most people already agree on. SOV is the first expansion i don't agree with most of the forums on.

Aradune is in Classic Rogues suck in Classic. Raid parses aren't a good way to determine the strength of a class. They don't account for play skill, gear levels or secondary roles.

I played one to max level on Agnarr and raided a little. That said maining a Rogue sucks balls, it's really fun when you're in a group/raid, but playing one while LFG is a god awful experience. Combine that with the stigma that they're a second rate DPS, gonna hard pass on maining one.

Edit: also it's i'm sick of hearing X so i decided to prove X is wrong by using most scientific methodology i can.

Okay, now do a test with GoD or above gear and blow Destructive Force on the monk while blowing Inner Flame. Then try that same on a rogue by blowing Deadly Precision. Bet your results will be a shade different. It's funny you picked Velious instead of Classic, Kunark, or GoD+. Velious-PoP are relatively balanced on the rogue vs monk front. It's Classic, Kunark and GoD+ that the monk is stupid OP. So even though your "study" may have been accurate (that's questionable at best, you don't start with conclusions then back your way to the answer), you still studied the most balanced thing you could to reinforce your point. Good job lol. You proved what we already knew. Rogues can keep up in Velious-PoP. Now go do Classic, Kunark, and GoD+. I'd be willing to bet that if the numbers don't come out your way (your monk is showing), you won't post them.

So, you think it's more accurate to just attack a stationary combat dummy versus a raid or group parse?

Epic fists are 23/28 ratio and don't apply a dmg bonus. Gharn's and Fist of Nature both have an equal or better ratio and proc/stats. They're both much better main hand and slightly better offhand.

OP gets props for at least trying to be scientific. But I agree with those who mention there are unknown differences between TLP and Live servers which render the results of this test questionable. I'm not saying its outright incorrect, but the test should be re-run in a TLP environment.

If someone out there would like to try and answer the 'Rouge Question', let them parse a monk and a rogue with max str, dex, and weapons similar in output, on either Aradune or Rizlona. Would be a good idea to parse against mobs of all armour types, also. Perhaps rogues pull ahead on casters, monks pull ahead on plate?

I just made a rogue last night and I already have a monk (on Rizlona). Perhaps I'll run some tests myself at some point and share the results.

Lol.....the issues has never been that rogues sucked in Velious and beyond, it's that they suck in CLASSIC. Congrats spending a bunch of time testing something that everyone already knew? Rogues are good from epic on, it's up until then that they are hot garbage.

"Use an hour long cooldown, because Monks are totally using destructive force every fight"
"But but please don't use the Thief's Vengence line, like a Rogue gets to do during the trash clear"

I get told all the time that they suck in SOV and SOL. You guys can try to move the goalposts all you want.

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Lol, assassin's strike isn't going to make up the difference. But sure, go ahead and throw some strikes in there. Going to bet that monks still top out. Hell, do an hour long parse where you're smashing strike, kinesthetics, and twisted chance and the monk is using all their discs with destructive force once in that parse. Wanna make a bet who will do more damage? I have a real good idea. Told ya you wouldn't run the numbers.

The general issue with rogues is that there is a lot of people who just use the general term "Rogues suck on TLPs" without context.

The real issue with rogues is that their utility is 100% tied up in stuff that doesn't really matter on TLPs anymore. Bards have lockpicking and are insane utility. And corpse runs are hardly a thing with how laughable the content is, how fast XP is, and no longer needing to recover items from your corpses.

Monks utility is still viable, they do amazing damage to boot, and have the best solo survivability out of the raw melee.

The real problem with rogues, is that even after they catch up in damage, they still can't surpass the utility offered by monks.

So they could fix rogues in 1 of 2 ways if they were so inclined.
1. Increase their melee skill caps in classic-PoP so that they attack as if 5 levels higher, this would remove a lot of the miss chance they face in the early eras and help close the damage gap considerably, putting them ahead of monks even in velious and beyond, or give backstab the same cooldown as kick.
2. Give them utility, no idea what rogue flavored utility they could do, but something to replace what they lost.


Even saying all this, most people I Know that play rogues, love playing rogues for the sake of playing a rogue, and don't really care about buffs/nerfs in early era.

Can confirm as a rogue main on Aradune that my eyes are firmly set on Ragebringer. The rogues in my guild are already poised to be epic'd on day 1-2 since we can basically do 90% of the quest prior to Kunark's release lol. Good times to come.

Except over the coarse of a XP session or a full raid clear it will.

The rogue will be a long shot. In AoS our half AFK rogues with bad gear were beating our full BiS monks on the Txevu clear parse.

But they don't "Catch up" in damage they surpass monks in sustained damage and remain behind in burst damage. I've know a LOT of Camp Monks in XP groups and raids which would be much better of being Camp Rogues. Besides are you really gonna act like FD matters for group content? A Rogue can pull with throw stone more than sufficient for a XP group, being a puller for XP groups is much about player skill then class.

didnt read anything in this thread because poster used the term BIS and talked about velious gear on a classic server?

Rogues with gear are fine, its up until you have that gear it blows. That gear only starts existing top end velious. Rogues are 100% gear dependant for dps, the only 2 things you do for dps are hit the backstab button on cooldown and stand behind the mob.

Additionally other people can destroy your dps with bad push or aggro control and while you can mitigate, sometimes it's not possible to counteract it entirely.

Your methodology is flawed in a lot of ways.

For one, The epic is a better ratio OH than FoN. 23/26 is > 15/18.

Second of all, you tried it on a non MOTM test dummy without adjusting the test dummies AC to be similar to that of a Velious era raid mob.

Both of these things are heavily skewed in favour of the rogue. You'd find that in a properly done test the rogue would be bwhins.