Can we finally fix Rogues and Rangers? Thanks!

You didn't even look at what Folly of Miragul's Ambition was did you?

I legit laughed at this post btw, summed up my feelings perfectly.

Hey Master Kahleem, I think you meant that a bow Ranger is not very strong in dps pre Luclin which may be right for classic and Kunark but they start to get better in Velious when they get access to Sleeper bows and really shine in Luclin.

They are fantastic group tanks however in Classic and when they have access to epics in Kunark, get a wurmslayer and swiftwind for weps and they do really good dps. You can even get the Sky cloak for the haste boost for added beast mode.

I would say that Rangers as group Tanks are just below SKs as far as tankability with snap aggro but can keep the mob's attention on them quite easily and can tank all group content really well. They are not meant to tank in raids which makes sense so they just dps, which they do better than SKs and Pally's when weaving in their spells with melee.

Pally in undead zones will be better than Rangers however, but Rangers still do very well.

I have run a ranger on every TLP since Phinny and have no problem getting into parses in raids starting from Kunark.

Rogues that are not in a guild to help them get the high end daggers may have an issue in classic but from Kunark on, they are great dps.

There are other classes that need help right now way above rogues and Rangers do not need any help, just use bow for pulling in classic and melee.

The issue with Rangers, specifically, is that they don't fit any actual role. They're not good dps, they're terrible tanks (slightly above a self-buffed cloth caster), and the whole schtick of a ranger is to, you know, shoot things. Almost every other class has had its meta changed in TLPs, and the game isn't anything like it was back then so it doesn't make sense to continue forcing Rangers and Rogues to wait 3 expansions before they're useful.

Rangers are not plate users, and do not get a LOT of the defensive skills that plate classes do. They're AWFUL group tanks, and just because they can cause a ton of hate with their snares does NOT make them a tank.

Tanking viability goes like this-> [Warrior, SK, Paladin, Bard, <insert chain user here>, <insert leather user here>, <insert self-buffed casters here>]

What makes a "tank" isn't necessarily their ability to hold aggro, but their mitigation of incoming damage. Warriors are terrible at holding hate without spamming provoke or double-yaks with DD proc gems on them. If we looked at tanking viability taking into account for hate generation AND mitigation it looks more like this -> [SK, Paladin, Bard, Warrior, <repeat of the above>.

A "Tank", group or raid, is two parts....mitigation factor + hate generation. It's very, VERY, difficult for anyone to make the argument a ranger is ever a good choice for a tank. Ranger as a tank is literally your last ditch effort to do content when trying to find a tank for your group. My Enchanter fully buffed probably tanks better than most Rangers.

Sadly, you can actually just send FD classes to kill and loot the gems.

If I am Darryl, and I am. I'd like to point out that Bobbybick happens to be a leading authority on rogues.

But what do I know, I'm just Darryl.

I literally said that's the only raid I want to have a rogue on, in the text you quoted me. jfc maybe try reading something before you reply to it?

rangers are actually quite good on TLPs even before luclin.

The answers to your questions are, in order, Blue, 42, and probably maybe. I didn't read what you wrote, I'm just answering.

But what do I know, I'm just Darryl.

Just re read your original post where you said you never played one so you are making a post without any real experience and going by what you have seen in other badly played Rangers and Rogues and you are being completely clueless.

You do not need to be a plate class to be a good tank, I have been in groups where we had a rogue tanking and we did fine.

Tank's job is to hold aggro so the healers and casters can do their dps and Rangers out dps SKs and Pallies hands down unless its an undead zone, which may put them all on same dps output. Not counting HT as thats a once an hour trick pony.

There is no group mob in classic through Velious that I have not been able to main tank as a ranger and never had any issues getting into groups where I was the main tank/puller. Raids are a different story but then again in raids SKs and Pally are offtanks anyway so your arguments are still wrong, and my Ranger has offtanked as well in raids.

Sounds like you are trolling more than making any good points

Now I know you are just an idiot

Rangers can group tank just fine. Even Beastlords can group tank in GE during luclin, or pof c1 during PoP. You don't need plate armor to group tank.

Not really, we had an enchanter tank Quarm on mangler because he wanted to try. Held aggro better than a warrior. Granted healers used a bit more mana.

From your resources\ACMitigation.txt file:

#*CLASS^*LVL^AC_CAP^SOFT_CAP_MULTIPLIER^
1^50^410^.35^
3^50^392^.33^
4^50^376^.315^
5^50^392^.33^
7^50^360^.3^

Consider, that a monk... who DPS outparses a rogue consistently, has not got the strict limitations of back-positioning to do max damage... has powerful Self-heal... FD... can offtank WELL,,, and due to the above skills, is top puller class. Hence, combined with that SUPERIOR DPS... is SUPERIOR utility.

A rogue has none... and in compensation, is so hindered by class limitations, it can never hope to catch up (barring a few Humanoid raid boss specific fights in later expacs). Overall, a monk has everything and a rogue has only one thing,,,
meelee DPS... consequently, the class with greater utility should pay for it with balanced DPS, not nerfed... just BUFF THE DAMN ROGUES to what they were INTENDED to be... KINGS of meelee DPS... because that's ALL they can do!

"Great DPS" and for the lack of utility is still having monk give them a run for the money... so, not exactly where it should be in consideration of the limitations.

You said:

Eh? Are you SERIOUS? What class is in a worse state than rogue? Wizards whose DPS is pretty consistently solid? Sure, they have issues with resists and ALSO not having any other utility... but a wizard can at least solo... a rogue is utterly group dependent.... at least for a long, long (several years) time... and once a rogue can assassinate blue humanoid mobs, sure, can solo, poorly. Imagine being an utterly group dependent class (Rogue) and not be wanted by groups because caster pet DPS is equal to or superior to yours.... then some yolo says OTHER classes need fixing over Rogues.

What are the OTHER CLASSES worse off than Rogue? Do tell...

I would challenge people to remove the number display from your chat (and whatever parse counter you may have) for a day of play and see how it might affect your enjoyment ingame.

Why did healers use more mana? He didn't tank quarm without using dragon scales. If he did use dragon scales he took significantly less damage than your tanks normally do.

Rogues need help most in Classic. That said, while they improve, they never become #1 and for the price of having no utility, should at least be consistently higher DPS than monks who have a lot of utility. This includes all the way up until Live... where Beserkers are consistently #1 DPS parse and have literally replaced rogues. Now, as to your personal insults. Reported. Only children think that personally abusing and insulting someone is equivalent to proving a point.

I leveled a ranger to 50 on mangler in classic, and if you weave call of flame in between auto attacks and land your dots, your DPS is very good. I routinely parsed just below the overpowered monks.

Also, once rogues get a decent weapon (Serpent's Tooth off Yael etc), their damage becomes respectable as well.

Comparing anything to the obviously overpowered monk fists / charm pet DPS is futile.It's been common knowledge forever that on a TLP those are the 2 classes to play if you want to be a min/max robot.

Thing is, EQ is not difficult, and there are a lot of morons on these forums seem to think that if you're not #1 on every parse your class is complete trash. I will take a Rogue with a good attitude before I take idiots like feigntrain or this kahleem guy any day.