Charm is too strong

The hypothesis is that’s it’s “so OP it’s broke” having OP skills are fine, until they are broken. Burden of proof is on the person demanding change (you) to show that it’s beyond OP and actually broken. If you find that unreasonable, then what is the entire point of this thread? Everything is he said/she said, if you actually dig into your claims and back them up with factual arguments (which will require parses) you would probably get a lot further.

Only someone who hasn't played a TLP doesn't know that chanter pets are the top dps in the game early on.
Just wave the white flag son.

It’s about proving it’s broken, if you can’t prove it’s broken.....

Probably why nothing has been changed.

Well, the devs don’t play the game. You need to provide parses and logs.

It doesn't get changed because dpg doesn't care or they don't have the ability.

You'll still get your OP pixel farmer. Relax.

Here is a thought, when the 50+ mage fire pet was nuking for like 1k a shot, it was still below the power of a charmed pet of the same era.

Yawn

Posts like these are why it’s never going to be adjusted. It just devolves the conversation and the thread gets locked. You have to provide parses and logs not hyperbole.

He's not wrong though.

I don't parse, but I can solo (no out of group healer) all of disco and work my way towards the exit before repops. The hardest part of charming is finding the right pet. In sebilis look for the illis wizard. In chardok I suggest doing kennels. In other zones... find your own as I'm not giving away all of the good pets

"The Hand of Veeshan in 155s, 66k @425sdps --- #1 ENC + pets 24k@152sdps (165dps in 143s) [35.82%] --- #2 TANK 6k@37sdps (37dps in 154s) [8.71%] --- #3 MONK 3k@22sdps (23dps in 150s) [5.16%] --- #4 MONK 3k@19sdps (20dps in 149s) [4.57%] --- #5 MONK 2k@16sdps (17dps in 143s) [3.71%] --- #6 NECRO 2k@15sdps (16dps in 148s) [3.51%] --- #7 ROGUE 2k@14sdps (15dps in 149s) [3.29%] --- #8 NECRO 2k@12sdps (13dps in 149s) [2.86%]

According to our DKP we had 4 enchanters. So that is 6k dmg or 38dps per pet. Which blows the water out of all others except the tank with a DS on."

Just one example. It just gets worse from here. lvl 50ish mobs charmed. Mobs get stronger they hit harder. This is with Monks being fully raid buffed they couldn't even come close to the DPS of Enchanter pets.

So that’s not a single enchanter at 152 dps? It’s 4?

That is the assumption.
Still twice as good as the nearest monk.

It would be enough.

At least in relationship of trying to tune down a universally acknowledged in-balance that needs a second pass through again now that restarting the in-game world timeline (and to a lesser concern extent - putting "farming early Everquest for easy krono 6 months of the year " on job resumes) has gotten to be a lot more of a "thing". With a grander scheme goal to at least slant the core game world grouping/farming meta away from being too overly-heavy in favor of CharmQuest, and back closer in line with your much more subjectively reasonable variety of "why is this class doing that better then that one" issues that will exist until the end of time in a game that will never be balanced on the min/max scale (and that is ultimately ok).

The real problem here is there is no way to do that without it notably impacting the very extreme end of the exploitation spectrum. Since just having a charmed pet that might only be doing a much smaller margin amount more dps the other actual dps player classes in an early era EQ group still ends up conflicting with the ability to box kill things like Chardok King/Queen, or keep some select cash camps efficiently split without the need of more outside support. Hence many stances here on why it needs to be all or "you are effectively removing the spell" nothing.

Similar to the original class/race penalties, the core problem with this fix approach is that adding negative value aspects to a player in a game that is built around world community group play is generally never going to up up with a positive net result. Charming mobs is a core tool built into the Enchanter's design arsenal, and big picture in itself there is nothing inherently wrong in EQ with one using such in a group as a means to maximize their contribution. Whether it be in a group setting, playing a duo box, or even solo play....the player should never be straight up "punished" for that imo.

I also don't like the idea concept of making mobs MR resistant to the point it would actually play out to have a meaningful impact (that is probably a hard balance compromise to achieve at that) for similar reasons. Since the end result there likely just takes the already mild but still tedious nature in having a charmed pet attached to your hip and multiples that by 10x for a lot of players out there playing the class who's world/enjoyment wouldn't come crashing down around them in the event they could no longer duo kill/farm a few extreme end of the exploitation spectrum mobs/camps.

So yeah, lowering charmed pet damage just makes the most universally appealing end result sense imo.

#6 NECRO 2k@15sdps
#8 NECRO 2k@12sdps
#1 ENC + pets 24k@152sdps

Good job linking the all the enchanter pets together and not linking mage/necro pets to their caster while also picking the only zone in the expansion with good charm pets and a fight where casters can't land spells.

Rogue was in the top 10 though.

Agreed, I was responding to the lack of knowledge that a previous poster had about the necro class skills / spells specifically. Also, some necros atill like to charm solo, horrible XP be damned.

That being said, the TANK PLAYER in the group should be the one who the group should revolving around keeping alive, so he can keep aggro of the mob. This will allow the other DPS classes to do damage, and the SUPPORT classes to perform crowd control, healing, buffing, debuffing, while the pullers runs off to get more. This is what the game was designed for. And the best part is, it isn't terribly boring with the right group of people.

This isn't a first person game. You DON'T have the option to turn off GOD MODE for the entire game. Just because one person may not use charm as a game breaking mechanism, doesn't mean the rest of the entire population will follow suit. In fact, the vast majority of the people will use charm to it's fullest extent. This involves 2-3 charmers per group, dominating a massive amount of content. While tanks and traditional DPS classes sit on their tushes waiting around for a regular group, or just log off. Your argument of, "well you don't HAVE TO use a game breaking mechanism just because it's there" is just ridiculous.

There are other areas, how about Vox and Naggy. Enchanters can charm mobs and do mad DPS there. Also, that was a RAID parse. It is in the group game that charm becomes so totally overtuned. Keep in mind, it isn't the player's fault that they want to min max with 2-3 charmers in a group and dominate as much content for the time they invest each play session. They are just trying to get the most out of the game without ACTUALLY cheating / hacking/abusing bugs. BUT, this doesn't change the FACT that the charm mechanic has been so completely out of balance that it has warped the playstyle of the game over time. Applying a damage debuff to charm spells would bring it more in-line with other in-game options, and not 50%. Again we don't want charm gutted, like they did in OOW, we want it adjusted with a soft touch. I would be much happer with shooting for the lower end of adjustments instead of over-tuning and ruining the mechanic like in OOW.

I'm having trouble understanding this parse. Are enchanters combined but other classes aren't? Why would you do this?

I'm making an Chanter on Rizlona, and I would still be 110% in favor of them making balance tweaks to the charm spell since its so OP. I would still have a Chanter in my box group even if Charm didn't exist, they would still be a top class for groups