In reply to suggestions to return/start on Mangler...

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Paincake, Mar 3, 2020.

  1. Tymeless Augur

    The original poster clearly doesn't understand that he can get the experiences he is looking for once he is leveled and in a guild doing the true social part of the game raiding. You know the part of the game where you have to not only be friends with people but work in coordination with 50-72 of your closest friends and allies. Yes the high of a new server is fun. If a new TLP is announced I'll probably play on it during my downtime on mangler for the fun of that rush. However, the fun of that rush is over in about 2 weeks and classic is a boring crapshow after that. Level up on mangler get to the content people are actually doing and you will find the vibrant server you are looking for.


    That being said also PoP has only been out for what 3 weeks. None of us are playing low level alts yet. Give us a few weeks to max out our AA's again get our already leveled boxes flagged and then you'll see many of us messing around on low level alts.
  2. Master Kahleem Augur


    This is why multiboxxing has kept the game alive for so long. Once the game becomes top-heavy, and everyone else just stops playing, the only way to really level new toons or help friends level is to box more than a couple toons at once.

    EQ devs know this, and that's why boxxing is still around.

    You want Mangler to pop again (save for only 60+ gameplay)? Ask them to turn off the Truebox code. That same population will triple in size. Sure, those 3 people you just formed a group with are probably all the same dude, but at least you have a functioning group!

    Yes yes, I know, won't happen, but it's something to point out :). Here's hoping the next 2 servers are actually planned appropriately and don't turn into another mess of "Hardcore vs Casuals, oh wait, we got them mixed up!".

    :D
  3. Paincake Elder



    Reading comprehension....are they still teaching that in public schools anymore? 4th paragraph, last sentence.
  4. Paincake Elder



    Again, missing the point. It isn't about just playing with 50-72 people from your guild on an empty server. The server is missing 80+ percent of it's original population, and 90 percent of what's left is at the top (yes I'm pulling those numbers out of my - but still, we know it's close to true). I get it though, mmo's are top-heavy after they have been out for years. Alts are being made, but it's nothing like the initial release.

    I didn't return to Mangler expecting fresh TLP numbers throughout the leveling range. My argument is that it's just barely able to support a new player joining. That new player with 1 account will have a tough time (not impossible) finding/creating a group. Being required to box another account is a copout.

    Most people don't really want to raid. Personally I loved it last year during vanilla and kunark. Raiding might still be an end-game goal for my friend and me. Again though, that's not what EQ is all about. If my only choices are solo/box or raid, then no, we aren't looking at a healthy server. It's a dead server with a few guilds at the top still raiding.

    Even at level 65, how can you claim that 12 people LFG is "healthy"?
  5. Paincake Elder

    Tried EQ2 for the first time recently on it's newest TLP (months old at that point). About the same leveling experience as what's current on Mangler.

    We would ask the other players who we could scrounge up, "so where is everyone? Pretty tough to get a group going at <whatever level we were>." Our replies were always, "Everyone is at the top, max level."

    The irony is that on the EQ2 forums, people recommended that server (Kaladim I think?) as being healthy, alive, and full of people also....

    Most mmo's suffer this same fate. However, most other mmo's also account for this by making it easy to solo for every class. Some do virtual server merges (WoW and I think FFXIV) to keep the leveling field "full" of players to group with. I don't want to solo, and I dang sure don't want Mercs. Some even do away with levels altogether (ESO and soon to come, WoW) which makes leveling feel pointless.

    This isn't what mmo's used to be. This isn't "Classic". This isn't a fresh TLP experience. This isn't even a comparison, and is absolutely not a substitute.
  6. Mrjon3s Augur

    The truth is people just know too much about the game and exp is so easy to come by. People don’t really don’t get stuck in hell levels anymore on death loops where you would spend 4 hours grinding and get 2 blues. As long as you get a group going and just start killing stuff you should avg about 20% exp an hour. This isn’t factoring people that know what they are doing.
    So the game ends up top heavy now and making alts isn’t as fun as it was back in the day because of how the exp rates are changed.
  7. Paincake Elder



    Seasonal server could be a good thing. But I'd put it in the same box as:

    Remastered EQ (graphics, sound, UI, animations only)
    Virtual server mergers like in WoW
    BST and BER in Classic
    Updated UI for modern resolutions
    Return of the Guide Program - properly
    FV Loot TLP
    PvP TLP

    Things that sound great, might possibly be amazing, but the company is either too broke, too lazy, or lacking ambition to make these changes/roll the dice.
  8. taliefer Augur

    thats not even remotely close to accurate. Mangler is the only server to consistently hit high population, in fact its more rare to see it at anything BUT high. the population on Mangler is insane. its just top heavy, as happens on every single TLP. its easily the most populated TLP since Phinigel, and i wouldnt be surprised if there are more people playing on it now than was on Phinny during PoP.

    of course, Mangler is on borrowed time until they announce their new servers for late spring/early summer.
    Tymeless likes this.
  9. Risiko Augur

    All I can say is that you have to make friends where ever you can, and keep in touch with them every time you play the game.

    It only takes 3 people to effectively have a group for leveling every single time you login. You've already got two (you and your friend you mentioned). Just befriend one more person that plays the game in the same playtime as you in your level range, and you're set.

    If the real issue is that you don't get to group with someone different every day, then there's really no answer that is going to satisfy you because you aren't going to see that kind of behavior until you get up to with in 5 levels of the current max level for the server.

    That being said, history has shown that as servers age (all servers), people tend to stick to playing with their group of in-game friends they have made along the way of leveling up and raiding. Therefore, if your enjoyment in Everquest relies on playing with different people every night, there is no server that will ever satisfy you beyond the first half year of it's existence.
    tofu stir fry and Tymeless like this.
  10. Tymeless Augur

    Nailed it!
  11. Tymeless Augur

    ^
  12. Paincake Elder



    Done that, and am continuing to do so. :)

    Listen, I get it. Gather people together from around the world and form groups. Gain exp, hit max level, and there will be more of a selection of people. This is the same with most current mmos, including Live EQ. The point is, there is no difference at this point from a TLP server (any of them) than Live EQ, except for the expansion lock. The population issue is still there. All top heavy.

    On a fresh TLP (which this entire thread is about - the support of it being a necessity, and the debate against it), there are way less zones. Therefore the leveling population is concentrated in a few select places, thereby opening multiple new picks. You zone into LGuk, Chardok, etc. and you see a dozen or more people standing at the zoneline LFG. You pick over to one of the 6 picks, and it's the same thing. It gives the appearance that there are a TON of people playing and enjoying the game. Seeing these people and all of these picks open, helps to re-assure people that they aren't playing a dead game....even if it is 21 years old.

    Currently when you zone into one of these popular places, you do not see anything like that. One could argue that it's because those people are spread quite thin across ALOT more hot zones. While that is absolutely true, the data I provided earlier suggests it's not just that. There is just substantially less people overall in the 1-60 bracket. And it appears (I'm not there yet) that the 60-65 bracket is also quite low.

    This same scenario is found on every Live server and previous TLP. Just because a few hundred people are staying in whatever server within their circle of friends (guild) logging in just to do raids 2-4 times a week, doesn't mean the server is truly populated and welcoming to new accounts. And of course you have the huge population of Bazaar OFFLINE characters as well. I'm sure they are counted in the server status of "High".

    I obviously do not expect a massive population of leveling players. Nor do I expect them all to still be in Classic and Kunark zones. I do have realistic expectations believe it or not. But as a did suspect/expect, the Mangler TLP is absolutely not a substitute for a new, fresh TLP for a new account....or even a returning account (unless that account has a level 60+ already).
  13. Risiko Augur

    You are correct in that the Mangler server is not for you. None of the current TLP servers (or Live servers for that matter) are for you. What you expect out of your Everquest experience does not match any of the servers currently running right now. Therefore, for you, a new TLP server is ideal.

    Where I disagree with you is your last statement of, "But as a did suspect/expect, the Mangler TLP is absolutely not a substitute for a new, fresh TLP for a new account....or even a returning account (unless that account has a level 60+ already)".

    That statement is only true if the person starting a new account or returning to the game has the same expectations as you. Not everyone out there wants to play low level content with a few hundred other people. Some people might actually be joining Everquest on an existing TLP server BECAUSE they want to play through the current unlocked or next to unlock expansion for that server.

    Your blanket assumption that just because Mangler is not for you means it is not for anyone is the fallacy.

    The Mangler server is by far the most active TLP server right now. It just doesn't meet your specific demands.

    I wish you the best on finding what you are looking for on the next TLP server this summer.
    Skuz and Tymeless like this.
  14. Tymeless Augur


    It doesn't matter what server he plays on whether its a new TLP or not what he is chasing at this stage in the game is long gone forever from MMO's. He can get a small glimpse of it on any new mmo and or new TLP launch here in eq but it will only last for a very short time even in new games but especially on a new TLP.

    Everquest isn't going to attract masses of new people over a servers lifetime to keep a steady influx of players at all level ranges. Servers mature faster now than ever because the game isn't growing at the rate it did when we had the fond memories of taking over a year to get to max level in classic-velious. We don't have to compete for places to exp like we did in those days of having camps with 6-8 spawns or sometimes less to get our exping in. So we level faster just from having more stuff to kill. Furthermore we level faster due to higher exp rates. Finally we level faster because we have so much more information at our finger tips then we did back in the early days so we have optimized it to the point we are 50 in a week or 2 playing somewhat casually.

    AoC's have been included on most TLPs to cater to the high level character base on these servers to give people something to do. If they didn't new TLPs would die even faster as only 1 or 2 guilds would be able to survive even in the early days of a server. Now if you could have a slow exp server that attracted more players that are about the journey and not the destination then you might create the right server for him. However, its been seen time and time again on TLPs people want to get to the endgame and do the endgame they don't care about the journey. Its why you have so many raiding guilds on these servers and very few if any true casual guilds.

    Even my guild Phoenix Ascended is only casual in that we don't require raiding to be a member of the guild but by any standards of current MMOs we are far from casual officially raiding 3 nights a week and doing off night stuff 2-3 nights a week too that would be considered raiding and the top tier guilds would consider us filthy casuals. We have 80+ main players and another 10-20 more casual players. We cleared time in just over 2 weeks. We have people begging us to join and have had applications closed for over 4 months and as far as I can tell mangler hasn't lost any guild on the server recently which means that there are 15-20 healthy guilds at around numbers equal to ours or much greater.

    The Mangler server is very healthy with 1000s of people on each night we are all just busy doing top end stuff right now. Alts will start popping up again in a couple weeks and the low level game won't be bustling like a new server but it will exist at a far greater clip than on the live servers.

    In summary TLPs offer the experience that he is looking for for a couple months only at the beginning of the lifespan and none regardless of the ruleset will ever give him the feeling he is looking for long term. He is looking for something that can't exist in today's world longer than that. He isn't actually in love with everquest at all he is in love with a game feeling crowded where people are forced to socialize with him. He doesn't want to be a part of a guild or join a community where he can make close connections and continue to clear content with them for years onward and experience new content with them. He wants to be a part of the rush of the server but he doesn't want to make lasting bonds with any guild or people because he always wants a new and fresh group. Least that's what it sounds like to me.
    Skuz and taliefer like this.
  15. Xeris Augur

    Low level game in EQ where there's hundreds of people in Guk and other popular leveling zones is gone by the end of Kunark. So, if that's all you care about, then you've basically gotta hit that 10 week window of a new TLP, or wait for the next one.

    Truly, the best way to enjoy EQ is to find your own fun from it... unless the only way you're having fun is picking up a group of randoms in banded armor killing Orcs in Nektulos. It would be dumb to recycle characters/TLP every 6 months just to rehash the same leveling experience over and over again.
    Risiko likes this.
  16. Paincake Elder



    I understand and agree with all you said, except for the last paragraph. I love making new friends in mmo's. I love raiding and guild relations. But on the flip side, I don't want to be alone in zones with my buddies. I enjoy the battle for camps. Trying to kill/pull as fast as possible so you don't lose some of your mobs to a neighboring party. There's just something about this element that is so much fun (also annoying at times) on the early TLP scene.

    Also, I hate to admit this, as it doesn't speak highly of my character....but I like to show off a bit. I like to be decked out in badass gear that was earned, join a PUG, and they are like, "whoa! This dude is stacked!", or something like that. Obviously skill is paramount. But still, yeah it's shameful. But it's true.

    When you're just in a raiding guild at the top end of the server, and that's all the people there, then who is there to show off too? lol Sure, tackling and conquering content and raid bosses is fun as hell. But that only lasts so long. In other words, you can only kill Naggy so many times before it's not really fun anymore. What did you get from it during those 10 kills? Maybe a CoF? Awesome. But, if everyone has one.....where's the fun <pride?> in that?

    On the total flip side of that, I also enjoy being the total n00b. Not knowing anything about the zone, mobs, etc., and having to learn it all. But at some point, you become almost an expert on that information. You're ready to lead groups there, teach other n00bs. But if there are no other n00bs, then what? :)
  17. Fraggly Augur

    You make a solid case for a Truebox no AoC server. Sure would be neat to see how the community evolves there since truebox is heralded as the savior of TLPs.
  18. TheldranusAgnarr Lorekeeper


    You're not going to be totally stacked gear wise on a new TLP either. So it's a moot point.

    Also, at 6PM EST most of the EST based raid guilds would be forming up shortly, so it's actually not a great time to exp either. The population of any TLP server will always end up being top heavy. A new TLP would not be different either, there's an initial 5 weeks crazyness as people scramble to get their main to 50, and then it dies out since there's no reason to really log on outside of raiding unless you suffer from alt-titis.

    This is a twenty year old game with a niche following, there are not going to be many n00bz at any point in a servers existance. DBG is actively looking to serve that niche, rather than try and get new people to join up. (which makes sense as the gameplay does not appeal to the wider mass, and the graphical engine is very old)
  19. TheldranusAgnarr Lorekeeper


    Truebox with no AOC is going to be a cesspool, much like Pantheon will end up being. (I'm a 250$ backer there, but the no instances stance is silly in this day and age, we're not 18 year olds living in basements any longer)
    Lineater and Fraggly like this.
  20. Paincake Elder



    Perhaps it is moot after a period of time. I'm speaking of my experience on the release of Mangler up to mid Kunark (which yes, falls into that 5 weeks you mentioned). Also a good point on the 6PM thing. I'll try different times to see if I can get other results.

    You next paragraph is also correct, partially. But it also brings up another point, one in which I am extremely avid about.

    First, in my early time on Mangler, as well as this past week or so, I have grouped with many "n00bs". They were not always n00bs in a sense that they were entirely new to EQ, but a lot of them only had experience with later expansions/zones. The same applies to me, as I never did play much past Velious way back in the 2000's.

    The second part, which also ties into what Theldranus posted, is that if DBG/DPG is not trying to get new people to join EQ, it is pure insanity. The game will definitely die if actions are not taken. This applies to what I consider "Remastered EQ", and would deserve it's own thread. But I firmly believe if the game was truly remastered (only graphics, sound, animations, and UI) as well as heavily advertised, then it would draw in many new players. We cannot know if the gameplay (being so different than current mmo's) would be liked or disliked, because most people haven't even tried it. They look at EQ and then turn away because they literally see a 21 year old game with 21 year old graphics. One that appears to never have been updated for the modern era. A dying/dead game. Much like how one would perceive Anarchy Online at this point. So, I believe there is no true data to support saying that the current demographic of mmo players would be uninterested in the type of game that Everquest is/was. To tie into Theldranus's post, yes, most of us are way older now than when EQ was released. Was 22, now I'm 42. More responsibilities, less time. A lot of us are. However, there ARE still 18yo's still living in their parent's basements (probably playing Fortnite haha, but still). There is a market out there, is my point. There just hasn't been any effort to entice them to play. If EQ isn't remastered, it will die. Us old farts can only keep it going for so long lol.