On some servers, there are guilds that are very large. They invite new or returning players as soon as they log into the game at the detriment to smaller guilds. They often poach players from smaller guild as well which makes it just that more difficult for small guild to grow and maintain a healthy number of players. This has the similar effect of Wal Mart pushing out mom and pop stores. Servers have less guild diversity, while guild plots and guild neighborhoods become as vacant as the parking lot of the Pontiac Silverdome. We are not talking about players moving from casual guilds to raid guild or back. Those are simple progressions that are understood. What we are talking about is having one or two guild so massive that is makes small guilds unable to grow and have the critical mass to remain viable as a multi-player guild. The question is, how large is too large, and should there be a hard cap limit on guild size? Is a cap of 1000 players too low? Is a cap of 2000 justified? Is no size too large? What is the best balance for players in Everquest?
If a player likes a different guild than yours, for whatever reason, you want to stop those players from doing so by limiting the number of players a guild can have because you think it's unfair?.... No offense, but that seems silly.
You can't cap guilds cause there are players that may not have logged in for many years and that would punish the guild for having X many people who cannot be removed from guild roster because they might return. What % of players return and instead of joining any guild they choose to join the in-game provided guild used for ports? What % make themselves their own guild just cause they can? What % avoid guild stuff all together cause they don't like cults? Smaller guilds can also poach using the "family orientated" and "casual" adjectives because many returning players don't want the horror and inter fighting of the way old guilds used to be. You don't have to only raid with your guild. In the past many of the smaller guilds would join together and take on the bosses. No reason for neighborhoods to be vacant since each character can buy 3 plots. It adds up fast. Just some views from the other side.
There are two things to consider. The first is quantity of scales and the other is critical mass to maintain viability. The large guilds have many more players, so they can recruit at all times, and they often do. They tell players looking for a guild that they have 100 players on at all times and therefore are superior.They make sure the small guild remain small because they invite every player they see. The small guilds have difficulty growing because they don't have those resources, and by being smaller, they have trouble having enough players to group unless one or two members are on at all times and are willing to group at all levels. Even that is often not enough.
Sounds like someone has an axe to grind, rather than an honest question. Comparing guilds to store fronts is really stretching all credibility. Guilds aren't business … guilds aren't cults … guilds come and go and have since the start of Everquest. Especially in the last 8 or so years when zero interaction with the devs/customer service is required to create one. People are free to choose to be in a guild (assuming that guild wants them) and people are free to leave a guild at any time. It is a GREAT THING for new and returning folks that there are guilds willing to take anyone with a pulse. Gives them access to the guild portal. Gives them access to a group of folks who are either newish as well or at least been through the process to answer questions, get tips and maybe even find some grouping. Maintaining a functional guild, especially with no raiding, takes a ton of work and requires folks with real dedication to helping people. Every large guild that I have ever seen has that. Ninety percent of small guilds that I've seen are simply there for the guild leader - whether to stroke the ego, have people help funnel resources to, or mostly have folks to accomplish raids where the leader ends up taking more than the fair share. I'm guessing that the whole reason you posted this is because you are the leader of a small guild and you got hurt that someone who you probably threw resources to got up and left for greener pastures. Welcome to life. It's a game. You can try to build relationships all you want, but ultimately … it's just a game. Put more time, effort and planning into your guild, and I bet your retention rates are better. I was an officer for 14 years in the largest guild on Xegony (Druzzil Ro … Xev FOREVER). The number of people I personally spent time, effort and resources on that ultimately ended up in other guilds is enormous. A few bothered me over the years, but I got over them all … because in Everquest, you are free to be in whatever guild that will have you at any time you want. And no one should be able to stop that ever. The answer to your question is there should be no limit on guild size.
How many characters would that be? If a guild wants to maintain an absentee roll of 1000 characters, that is up to them. At some point, they may have to drop some characters, but isn't a 2000 cap enough to allow that for a majority of guilds. Some make their own guilds for that. Why would that make a difference? Not sure about the percentage. Those are not the players we are discussing, so why does it matter? LOL ... again, I don't know, but again ... why does that matter? If a person is not going to join any guild, it doesn't matter if they will not join a guild with 3000 characters or a guild with 300 characters. That could be, but as I stated in the OP, we are talking casual guilds here for the most part. A guild that offers raids to those that want it will obviously have players that move to a raid guild. If a guild with 3000 players loses a player or two, what harm does that do to the viability of the guild to group? If a guild with 100 players loses a couple active players, what is the comparable difference in disruption of the guild and the ability to form groups? I agree, but doing raids isn't what we are talking about. It does if players wish to do so, but take a trip through the neighborhoods on your server. Many are vacant and lifeless. . Thank you for your input. This is an area for discussion, so your input is appreciated.
Economics is in play on this level just as it is with storefronts. I don't know why you would think differently. People are free to choose to not go to Walmart over mom and pop stores too, but we all know how that worked out for mom and pop stores.
Instead of complaining about why people aren't picking you, find or build some competitive advantage that would attract people to your guild. If you're losing players or players are shunning your guild for another, ask why. Until you have more data, this is all a bunch of bs whining.
The OP is concerned about one aspect of competitive advantage, and that is size and how that affects viability. That is using ceteris paribus conditions. Didn't the OP already state why? I assume that the difficulty is with relative guild size rather than players stating that he was a jerk. If the latter was the case, then size wouldn't matter. How do you know the OP doesn't have data. Even so, basic economics supports the hypothesis that guild can actually be too large and could be a detriment to the game.
If a player wishes to join a guild with 2000+ members they should be allowed to do so. There are pros and cons for small and large guilds let the players choose what they want. Some will join a guild when they return to EQ or start a new char, then leave after they have gained a few levels for a guild that more suits there needs, or a different guild where they have friends old or new. It can be upsetting when members leave your guild for pastures new, but they like you are playing for fun and if they think they are going to have more fun else where they are going to leave, for whatever reason.
Is this an issue of fun or an issue of guild viability? One has to ask if the people joining the guild with 2000+ members are doing so because there are a lack of viable alternatives. Would many guilds with 500 characters be better for causal players than one large guild with 3000+ characters? I don't believe we are talking about choosing between two guilds with 1000+ players. We are talking about one guild with 3000+ players and others with just 100 or 200 players that are having difficulty providing a quality of life experience for no other reason than the inability to compete with the large guild because of the quantity of scales of grouping opportunities within the guild.
First it's clear you are talking casual guilds only to be but please correct me if I am wrong. I can't speak for all large guilds and I have no idea how things go on TLP servers. But I can speak from my experiences. I have run a guild that has been on the large size for most of the 20 years I have been running it without any breaks. We haven't always been the largest but due to just out surviving other guilds we are the largest casual guild on our server. I constantly update my guild ad with the numbers of players we have on at various times but I never claimed that made us superior. I do think it's the closest you can come to giving a player an objective idea of how large a guild is. And when people ask me about the numbers I always caution them that 100+ online now is not the same as 100+ online 10 years ago when there were far fewer boxes. I never ever quote our inactive roster numbers and any time the rare guildy mentions it I ask nicely for them to stop. And you seem to be saying large guilds are large because they invite every player that they see. So small guilds are selective and therefore they should be given more players from the player fairy? I am pretty sure DBG allows all guilds the right to use the same recruiting tools other guilds use. And where you say they invite everyone they see and where goodn says they invite everyone with a pulse I prefer to see it as giving everyone a chance to join a strong casual guild. I can't speak for all large casual guilds but I frequently suggest folks try us out with one toon and see if they like what they find. And when folks want to server transfer to join us I always suggest it. You can't force players to join a guild. Can't be done. You also cannot force people to stay in a guild. When you have folks leave you wish them the best and are happy for them if they found another guild that is a better fit. And just like when dating desperation in a guild leaves a bad smell. I always tell folks they can join us but if they find a better fit we are happy for them. Assuming you are on a Live server it is extremely difficult for any small guild to get to the critical size needed to stay viable. That is not the fault of the guilds that are viable it is just the fact that there are so few people looking for guilds. Fifteen years ago it was easy to create an active guild on the Live servers. Nowadays not so easy though some still do it. Also it shows you have an ax to grind because you seem to claim the ONLY reason large guilds are large is because of what you portray as negatives. That is clearly a biased opinion as you don't even entertain the fact that some guilds are large because they are good at whatever particular niche they fill. But you are right success tends to breed success. I don't consider that a bad thing. In the past I have seen guilds try some questionable recruiting tactics... claiming to be raiding but not mentioning its only raids from years past that they do. I knew a guild that would quote numbers online that they haven't had for 7 or 8 years. Best you can do when recruiting is try to be as honest as possible. And to your original post why does there need to be a cap on guild size? Because some guilds can't grow you want to limit the ones that do? What you are saying is you want to run a guild and be given players because you can't get them on your own. I don't get that sorry.
It is an honest question. I see this not only with our guild but other on our server. Obviously, if I didn't see a problem, I wouldn't have started a topic. No it isn't. As was stated elsewhere in this topic, it is simple economics and economies of scale. I agree, and that will not change in either case. People can choose to change their internet provider at any time too, that doesn't make it easy to actually find an alternative. It is, and all of the guild in question do this, so it is a moot point. Could that be because small guilds that wish to help others and are not primarily for that are being harmed by having one large guild dominate the server. If the quality of small guild is lacking, that is evidence that there is a problem. If a town only has a Walmart and some pawn shops, wouldn't it be a good question to ask why? It does affect my guild, but I am not the guild leader. I guess if those mom and pop shops could sell those bicycles below cost to compete with Walmart, they would be better too. It is their fault they didn't do that. They should have planned better. Thank you for your opinion and input in this discussion.
just out of curiosity, how many total members are in lions now? (including boxes, inactive, etc.) i know when i had a few alts there over the years... with my old PC, i hit the "show offline" in the guild tab and lagged out for about 3mins waiting on it to load with the massive number of members lol
I'm all for busing to smaller guilds. I have a few guild members that could use this service. We will ship them off to the smaller struggling guilds, making ours stronger - addition by subtraction. Where shall I send these, your new guildies? Conq
Okay I see folks talking about guilds with 2000 players and 3000 players etc etc.. are we talking live servers or TLP? There is a big difference and even with TLP are we talking new TLP servers or old ones? Also a big difference. On Live servers no guild with 2000 or 3000 players on there roster is full of mostly active players. They will have a large amount of inactives. One reason I never quote inactives for the guild I lead. This makes talking about roster size and how much losing a player means inrrelevant. Better to talk about average number online at any given time OR actual active players but getting numbers of active players is impossible to do for other guilds. Live servers also have a lot fewer non guilded folks who actually want guilds. A lot of people live in their single player guilds quite happily. Now new TLP servers are more like EQ back in the its prime. In this case 2000 or 3000 members means a lot more as I would think far less are likely to be inactive. So a Live sever guild of 3000 would hurt more then a new TLP server guild of 3000 in my opinion. And how does how badly a guild is affected by losing a player have anything to do with limiting guild size? The only connection I can see is that someone thinks a players choice of guilds they can be in should be reduced so they have lower turnover. I never ever ask anyone from an active guild to join mine I can't speak for other leaders but if anyone comes to my guild from another active guild it is because they want to join us. Over the years I have had many many players move on to other guilds. Sometimes they want to try another casual guild. Sometimes they want to try raiding and in each and every case I wish them the best. When I created my guild I created the sort of play environment I would enjoy playing in and it seem to appeal to a lot of others. But every guild will have folks who move on to other things and really the only proper reaction is wish them the best not try to find a way to limit their choices so they stick with your own guild out of lack of choice.
I don't really think a guild can be too large unless it were somehow dominated by tyrants who discriminated and suppressed other groups/guilds without any kind of policing. Kind of the whole gang idea where if you aren't a part of my group it is my duty to inflict damage on you and growing to the point they rule others with fear. In real game metrics I can't see this situation materializing. I would almost certainly never join a small guild at this point. Less opportunity and less likely to bounce back from a set back. It would have to be a case of super close friends and family, a server where all the people in my time zone are concentrated in a small guild and everyone else were across the world or some incredibly amazing people in a small guild and a bunch of jerks in the bigger option.
I did not say that. I stated that large guilds have more players on at all times that actively recruit every player they see without a guild label. Small guilds recruit, but not at all times. Small guild players say the same thing. They give players a chance to join a small guild with fun players that will help them out. The problem is that small guilds lose players to the ultra large guild simply because it is difficult to maintain enough players to group consistently. It rarely works in reverse. No one is asking anyone to force players into any guild or stay in any guild. No one can force people to shop at Walmart either, but once the mom and pop stores close, what alternative do they have? What is the chance of a new mom and pop store opening up to compete against the big box stores with all of their competitive advantages and economies of scale? I agree. One has to ask if very large guilds contribute to this just by size, not by quality of players, and if that is good for the game or not. That was not claimed. Some guilds are better than others for many reasons. Some stores are better too, but if they are closed, how would anyone know any difference? I hope you like paying your internet and cable bill at twice the cost and half the speed as it could be if there was actual competition. When guilds start using there size to act like player monopolies, there is a problem. Of course, those guilds don't see a problem. We are not talking about those tactics. This is simply a question of size and if it is detrimental to allow a single guild to dominate a server. No one is saying that any guild should be "given" players. No one. What I am saying is small guilds and new guilds have trouble getting players because one guild dominates the server. We also see medium guilds trying to stay afloat by trying to recruit small guild players as well because they are having trouble not imploding because they don't have new blood. The affect of a dominating guild are felt on many levels.
You don't actually address any of the questions/concerns. If size is one guild's competitive advantage, then that's fine. What are the competitive advantages of the smaller guilds? Nothing? Then they SHOULD fail. Why would a person with free will stick around and invest time and effort into something that doesn't give them anything back in return? Get divorced. Move on. Show me your "basic economics" for supporting that hypothesis.
So large guilds that people like to be in should be limited so that small guilds can become large guilds? Or limit large guild so small guilds can stay small and still have as many players as they want? I dunno seems to be players are going to stay in whatever guild they think is fun. No one says "I am going to play in a large guild where I don't have any fun just because it is a large guild". Something I learned from 20 years of playing and running a guild is that players are going to do what is most fun for them. Trying to use game mechanics to limit where folks can go doesn't seem to be the answer to me.
