Devs have literally destroyed paladins and no one is saying a word

Definitely have to be spam casting to keep aggro off monk's and I find that outside of taunt I cannot keep aggro off our top beastlord. Other than that, I don't have issues keeping aggro even off people that used to give me trouble. I think beastlords are broke.

Beastlord agro is really stupid though, they need a boost to their de-agro ability maybe

It's like the other day when someone was telling me no one wants a druid. There are a number of druids I'd gladly take for DPS or MH.

I main an enchanter and box a cleric. Sometimes I main that cleric when it's appropriate.

The worse tanks are warriors. They suck and they are hard to heal, except when they are discing. I always prefer a knight over a warrior except when fighting something with absolute single target face stompage. This includes raid warriors with equal gear and skills to the raid knights.

I play with a lot of skilled and powerful SKs. They do a great job pulling. They are easy to heal. Other than their DPS they are nothing special.

I play with some equally skilled paladin. I will always take a paladin in group missions with AEs. My cleric is group geared with an acceptable amount of AAs, and the paladin patches are always welcome. Actually when TBL was new a paladin offtank with stuns and group heals was the backbone of my successful wins. I never group with paladins and find them to be any softer or lesser on aggro than SKs. Maybe swarming and AE'ing group? That's kind of niche.

You don't have to agree with me about warriors, but anyone saying paladins suck play with sucky paladins.

Maybe. But the reality is, it is lame to have to either accept not doing what you're supposed to do well, or tell someone to tone it down.

Let's be real, its not that big a deal in group content (if you're grouping with these kind of people, we are all geared well enough to tank ToV group stuff). I'm more annoyed by having to table some of MY abilities that would be fantastic for tanking/dps to cover up for the fact our aggro per click generation is less than the other tanks.

There honestly isn't a good solution though. There are mechanical issues at play here. Our abilities do not scale well. They tend to be massively OP or underwhelming. Pumping us up enough to account for some classes/people would make us a boxable aggro tank for most people, as an example.

But I'll never advocate for nerfing anyone to account for us. That is beyond lame.

However, I'd say it would be nice to get a new single target marr's that can only be kept up on one person at a time, didn't stack with the group one, but reduces aggro by 50% instead of 25%.

Splash doesn't get more curing of (Curse) Counters so you have to keep Twincast for the expansion, or switch to Eradicate Curse in specific zones. The only improvement this expansion is the heal amount.

Oof. Forgot about that in beta. That is aggravating.

Eradicate Curse might be the way to go

Plenty of spells paladins cast while tanking could be generating heal aggro except there were designed not to do so. Specifically designed with small hate override or negative hate mod to generate less hate then they would normally. Paladin are the only tank afaik that have had this handicap applied to their abilities. Show me a warrior or SK abilitity that has it's hate capped to nothing. It's as if the Devs have been afraid of the normal hate generation of our heal spells being overpowered and so paladins are under powered wrt hate.

Paladins could be generating hate from, but are prevented:

Remonstrate
Harmonious Light
Healing Light
Penitent Reward
Aurora
Splash
Inquisitor's Judgement
etc.

I underlined the 1 solid point in your ramblings. Most of the rest could be attributed to your use of crushes or use of a shite lineup, idk because you are afraid to post it. I'm sure you're aware that not all classes WANT to be less aggro and thrive on pulling it off of you.

But we don't disagree on everything. I have been vocal about the difference in PASSIVE aggro abilities between the two knight classes for years now. One can basically be an afk autoattack swinging bot and hold aggro while the other has to perform constantly at their best.
Some of that has to do with the hate mod difference between a paladin and an shadowknight.
Some of that has to do with, even if we want to Marr's Salvation those DPS with broken aggro, they can block it.
And as Wulfhere posts below, much of it has to do with hate mod cap/negation spells that are not equal in other tanking classes.

For instance - some alliances have full aggro still.

[57951] Bloodletting Resolution III
Target: Single
Range: 50'
Resist: Magic -1000
Reflectable: No
Focusable: No
Casting: 0s
Hate: 197436
1: Decrease Current HP by 2512760
Deals #1 damage to your target.

[58029] Firewalker's Resolution III
Target: Single
Range: 50'
Resist: Magic -1000
Reflectable: No
Focusable: No
Casting: 0s
Hate: 218926
1: Decrease Current HP by 2786396


It is high time someone re-looked at aggro generation calculations as DPS numbers climb. The measly 15-20K per aggro ability isn't enough.

Honestly - having a tank with hate mod locks or negative hate mods never made sense to me. If any class should have negative hate mods on each cast it should be DPS classes.

Marr's is 15% btw.

Probably the biggest problem, and where the most overlap of last couple years aggro issues, and the problem classes being listed this year, is proc aggro on classes that do not have a large amount of subtlety/SPA 114.

BP clicks with no hate override on a Ranger/Monk were a substantial problem.

The procs on weapons that have both grown larger, and more frequent stand out, as that's 1 to 1 hate generation, meaning the ratio of aggro to damage is high. Especially for classes that don't crit them as much or as often, reducing the expected damage for each point of base.

Couple of the listed cases include classes with an autoproc disc that can coincide with large nuke-based procs such as a Beastlord or a meleeing Ranger.

Nec still has a large nuke proc for it's BP click, which stands out more with the Gathering Dusk change and the faster ramping on twincast for Dissident and such. Also on a lucky witness check, the rune on Embalmers during Gathering Dusk.

Monks use a 2hander, the raid one has a 10k base proc. They have no aggro reduction mod so a lucky streak of procs at 10k hate each, 20k on a twinproc is kinda like a hate spell. Less pronounced, but more persistent and luck based.

And Beastlords are kinda at an intersection point, due to the fact they have both the autoproc disc, a fair amount of quick to stack DoTs with frontloaded nukes, and they spam and overlap these with the Vindication procs, for a base of 43k reduced to 26k by subtlety or 19k with Marr's+subtlety every 3 seconds on top of all else. This also stretches for a long enough period they may chain from mob to mob with faster refreshes than tank tools fairly easily.

I'd say somethings gotta give in the BST case, and one of the most parsimonious solutions is probably to put a hate override on the procs on the Vindication line. Half, a third, a tenth the base hate, I dunno. You could also look at some amount of passive SPA 114 for procs only for BST/Monk/Rng/Zerk. That'd let them toggle it on and off, and could shave some of the rise in proc aggro. Wouldn't have to get rid of all the recent years increase, but maybe dial it back a little.

That said, several of the classes you're listing are capable of handling their own aggro problem since 3 of them are FD classes, so thats at least in part a social issue. If they just want to fight you for it, anything they can turn on and off themselves they could simply choose to turn off.

There's a fairly involved conversation to be had about differences in tank aggro tools more generally, but I don't think this is really true at this point.

I'd say overall Paladins would be considered the most generally superior tank in terms of % mods alone.

SK's are at a 2x mod stacked. Option to flex up to 2.4x briefly with undivided.

Pals are at a 1.9x mod stacked, though theirs falls off more easily and more frequently. Option to flex up to 2.4x briefly with undivided.

Pals also have a group reduction that, depending on the class, is around a 1/7, 1/4 or 1/2 reduction in those classes aggro generation. Not counting any tank class in that.

War's are probably the most generally inferior on mod %'s, but situationally superior.

1.5x mod stacked, with the option to flex up to 2.5x temporarily with Dissident, 2.15x with Undivided, or 2.3x followed by I think a mix of 1.875x and 1.5x from that Warlord's fury thing.

Don't really get the whole story on just those numbers, but I don't think I'd call Paladin mods weak due to having two sides to the aggro mod thing.