Maximizing Potential of 4-Character Group (Mangler)

Good Afternoon,

My brother and I have been playing quite a bit the last month using our current lineup: I play a Paladin/Druid and he plays a Shaman/Monk. We each have about 60-75 AA’s and have just started trying to do some DZ content (Plane of Fear). I was under the assumption that the DZ would scale to the size of our group (6 to start it, but only 4 online). This does not appear to be true, and I was slightly taken aback when Dracoliche was thwacking my Paladin with max hits over 800.

One of the things we want to try to do over the next couple months is progress to more difficult content. We can stomp pretty much any group content we’ve come across like 15-minute 10-mob Maiden’s Eye (or Plane of Fear) battle royales. However, intense mobs like Dracoliche seem beyond us right now and I don’t see a practical way to bridge that gap with our current lineup.

I’ve given thought to leveling a Warrior/Cleric, which would bring us to Warrior / Cleric / Shaman / Monk. However, I am unsure how to weigh the benefits versus negatives. I like the idea of the warrior’s increased DPS and tough-mob tanking ability, but the Paladin seems an easily better choice for things like 10-mob battle royales. I like the idea of the Cleric’s better group heals and things like Divine Intervention, but the Druid brings more DPS and things like evacuation and, well, the ever-important Snare..

Should I just give Warrior / Druid a try? I feel like I’d miss the group heals of the Paladin, and the Rezzes even though we rarely if ever have used it. Or am I just naive thinking we could 4-man Draco with any composition at this point in the progression?

Many Thanks!

If you guys 2 box each, just add another box for each one, bard and some kind of DPS and you can do much much better.

War and cleric, shaman/bst, bard and couple DPSers.

If you guys both add a 3rd box, you'd be surprised at what content becomes possible (long af, but totally doable).

Enchanter - mind buffs, crowd control, dps (nukes, dots, charm pet), and runes (prevent lifetap from healing)
Cleric - buffs, rez, DI, DA, Celestial Regen, Divine Rez

Draco will always suck to do with low #s because of the lifetap. Get charm pets on the ench/dru and dps with everyone while balancing mana for healing your tank.

PoP is where the power curve starts to ramp up, allowing you to 1 group, small group old raid content. That said, if your looking to add 2, Bard + chanter or mage would be my advice. Enchanter for buffs and CC, mage for dps and emergency offtanking

My suggestions would be to keep 2-boxing each in preparation for mercenaries. Also, think about the bigger picture. Do you really need 3 healers, ports, and all that utility? Nope. Also, keep in mind that you either want to be caster heavy or melee heavy, that way your Bard melodies can focus on boosting one type only.

Consider re-rolling your Paladin to either a Warrior (if you raid) or Shadow Knight (if you're group content heavy) However, it isn't 100% nessecary. Moreover, absolutely switch your Druid to a Bard. Your brother's Monk/Shaman combo is prime.

Your ideal composition would be if raid heavy,

Warrior, Bard
Shaman, Monk
Mercenaries: Cleric, Wizard or Wizard/Wizard

Your ideal composition would be if group heavy,

Shadow Knight, Bard
Shaman, Monk
Mercenaries: Cleric, Wizard or Wizard/Wizard

Are you deliberately trying to be ? Mercs don't come out for another 11 expansions. He's asking about improving gameplay NOW.

While others are giving you good suggestions for improving your group, I'll just mention that probably you won't come up with any good 4-man combo that will be able to take Draco down in Luclin. Especially if your four toons are not already top end raid geared. Raid AoC content is not designed to scale for four characters, or even six characters, although in some cases a really solid group can get some of it done. There's a lot you can do to maximize your group and kill more content, but there are going to be some things that are beyond you no matter what your group setup. Figuring out which and pushing the boundaries is part of the fun, and what you can't beat now, you can always come back and try at level 65 once PoP releases.

2 people 3 boxing gives you a lot of scope, Paladin/Druid & Shaman/Monk is also a very strong & flexible boxing base

The above IS excellent advice, the rest of his post I am not referring to since changing your existing classes may not be something you want to entertain in the first place.

Adding EITHER a Bard or an Enchanter is an important choice & would really decide on whether to go with another box that is melee or caster based, as you already have a Monk which is very strong melee DPS on TLP I would lean towards picking Bard over Enchanter & then giving serious thought on another melee character, and another Monk or a Rogue is what I would plump for with your current line up, Bard melody box & Rogue which is fairly low-maintenance boxing-wise, using a Hybrid as a box is harder to do unless you prefer a really busy boxing style though Hybrid tanks work better in group content in my experience than Warriors.

That 6 player setup will be very good, it will let you attempt some DZ content though beating old DZ stuff tends to only be viable after around a few expansions gap, so as others have said by the time Planes of Power unlocks & you are in good raid gear on your mains you should be able to comfortably beat some older raid dz stuff as a 2x3 box.

Cleric is going to absolutely stomp a druid for a long time. I think around level 70 it has started to even out. But until then, you get no group heals, no rez, and people have carried over their "strong" utility from 20 years ago into today's EverQuest. DS is great, but player power has crept up so much that it's relatively a lot weaker. Dots aren't even a thing in 97% of groups. On raids, your group isn't going to complement you on your sustained, respectable dps when they're waiting for the cleric to rez them because you couldn't keep up the heal (and they were too cheap to burn a cele pot). Ports are always nice, but my philosophy is I'd rather take an extra few minutes to get somewhere in exchange for showing up with the better crew. With POK coming soon, ports become far, far less relevant and that trend only continues.

So, what to add? I'm of the mind that all players give up a lot of ability the more they box. I know, I know, "you" might be a really good boxer! But the reality is, there is a drop off. And that's why I like bards as a box. You'll never get the best of the bard, but unlike most other classes, you'll get all of the good of the bard. Mainly, that means getting things like mana song which is a game changer until at least around level 70. But you also get overhaste, all your resists, run speed, and (especially useful for tackling small group/high difficulty content) is the debuffs like occlusion and the dots which can absolutely devastate most mob's resists.

If you were thinking about dropping the Pally, quite frankly, I would drop the pally and the druid and go War/Clr. I 3-boxed a lot of old raid content on Agnarr as a bard tank, and let me tell you, a warrior with defensive has no equal. The shaman/monk combo really just complete the package and give you solid dps plus malo and utility. Once Gates comes out, Shaman slow really steps away from bard, whereas before bards could slow very well or better in 98% of encounters with the exception of disease. (I would definitely keep the shaman.)

That's not 3 healers. Paladin is the tank, not a healer (tank that can heal, but you definitely want a plate class). And the paladin can rez if necessary (don't think druid/shaman get rezzes until later on.)

Do you want ports? Without question, yes. Yes. Mangler is early on yet, and ports are really important and they are still very useful later on.,

Clerics are still pretty important. Even in the era of mercs, a well played PC cleric is still far better than a merc (maybe even better than 2).

All in all, not a bad group though. The utility of the shaman and the druid are pretty complimentary, and don't really over lap and you get some of the benefit of the cleric in the paladin. And you can grab a couple LFG DPS, which always seems available.

I want to thank everyone for replying. When I think about going either Warrior / Cleric or Warrior / Druid (with my brother on the Shaman / Monk), it is a definite trade-off.

With the Warrior / Cleric, our group has no snare ability. I know that weapons, like Anklesmasher, can help bridge that gap, but I'm uncertain how reliable that would be. It also seems overbearing for both the Warrior and Monk to rock an Anklesmasher in the off-hand rather than better weapons. Succors are very nice as well--definitely very significant for the group.

As far as going Warrior / Druid, the group gives up group healing, rezzes (which we rarely utilize), and a nice amount utility like lull or exotic Cleric things like Divine Intervention. Additionally, Druid HP/AC buffs are piddly compared to a Cleric. Running Warrior / Cleric would open up, even in Luclin, another 1k hp and maybe 25 AC over what the Druid can buff.

Overall, I am leaning toward just going Warrior / Druid rather than Warrior / Cleric. Snare seems the hardest to actually replace, and succor is almost as good as a rezz, especially now that my Druid has 65 AAs and has the instant-cast succor. Additionally, the Druid gets Spirit of the Wood AA in PoP that can function as an emergency group heal. I am not completely set on this, however, and I am currently leveling the Warrior / Cleric (both 25 at the moment). I will get the Cleric to at least 46 or 47 so he can battle-rez 90% on some fights like Fear/Dread in Fear.

You won't get 1k hp unless you're not using the paladin hp buffs. They also have a good ac buff. Do you not use them?

You should easily be able to get within 75-80% of cleric line with druid and paladin.

Also, defensive is mostly pointless for a six box and especially a four box. It will wear off before motm mobs are dead. If you can only maintain when defensive is up, then you'll fail when it's down. If you can maintain with it down then you don't need it.

Also, dz mobs are exactly like open world mobs. There is no difference besides no respawn.

If you're adding a bard then they can snare.

However, I'd like to caution you about what many of us have done... and that is carry over the usefulness of druid utility from 20 years ago into modern eq. Modern eq is extremely faster paced. Old eq, where druids were great rely on long, slow more methodical battles. The contribution of dots, ds, regen, etc are all far weaker, especially at the point you're at now.

I look forward to seeing if they get better 75+ but before then it's not even close.

Ah yes - the age-old battle between power and utility.

In the PoP and previous eras, there are a handful of classes that absolutely dominate group content. Unfortunately, you have to choose as to whether or not you're going to charm mobs. There is a 0% chance you will come up with a 4-box that can out-perform any combination of toons that include (1) charm pet.

Roughly speaking, the Enchanter is the most powerful class until charm gets nerfed. If you want to do the hardest content with your 4-box, one of you must main an enchanter. Sorry - just has to be. The ability to charm and mezz just reigns supreme early on.

That being said - charmed pets can dish out tons of damage, but need tons of healing. Enter the Cleric. Complete heal is just so much more mana efficient than anything else. Torpor is kinda close in effectiveness, but it's just not. Charmed L52 pets have something like 15k hp.

The most difficult mobs also usually require some kind of slow. Enchanter slow is decent, but Shaman slow is just insane. In addition to the slowing, shamans have some nuclear poison dots that can really help with DPS.

Lastly, you'll probably want some kind of tank for mobs that summon. This is where your Paladin / SK / Warrior comes in handy. In addition to being awesome against MoTM and summoner mobs, it's nice to have a tank when your charm breaks mid-fight. Paladin does well in this role, but a warrior is likely better.

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In short - I suspect you should do this:

You
Keep Paladin (main)
Druid --> Cleric

Brother

Keep Shaman
Monk --> Enchanter (main)

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If you don't want to charm...just ignore the entire post, haha.

The reason why I recommended changing classes now is because Mangler is still very early in it's lifespan and it wouldn't be too terrible to 'catch up' group substitutions - especially since you have a Druid.

Shadow Knight, Bard, Shaman, and Monk is optimal on Mangler in era and in '22 when Mercenaries hit. This group composition is near untouchable all eras of the game. If you want a caster alternative group: Shadow Knight, Bard, Shaman, and Mage would be my next recommendation. And, if you really want to port around then go with a Wizard, however when PoK hits you will absolutely wish you went with a Mage.

That said, while I will admit that my original post is radical and everyone thinks about the here and now - the fact is that you really should plan for a composition that's: 1) Going to have excellent synergy. 2) Going to be easy to manage 3) Stand the test of time.

If you do consider swapping classes then the suggestion above by Bullsnooze is pretty hard to do better than.

How I would do it is:

Player 1. SHD/BRD/CLR
Player 2. SHM/MNK/ROG

Yep, I couldn't agree more.

This selection nicely splits the responsibilities, has minimal overlap, and will be very fun to manage. It's also well designed and allows for 3-boxing when schedules conflict.

I’ve been 6 boxing on Coirnav since Kunark with sk/sham/mage/cleric/bard/Druid, recently switching from Druid to wiz. I did things like 6 box drusella in era, cleared tipt in the first week of GoD, and nijacka in inktuta at the end of GoD after I farmed my team a lot of gear, and all mpg group trials when OoW dropped.

You guys made the same mistake I made because my box group started as an sk/sham 2 box. When 2-3 boxing it is important to cram as much utility as possible into the few toons you have. Once you get to 4+ the specialists start to be much more useful.

Like me, you will forever be limited to the content you can handle without a raid geared warrior MT. It’s a simple fact that the best 3 box for challenging content is war/cleric/bard. If you want to handle a pet, chanter is obviously amazing through PoP. If you don’t want to charm chanters are useless with clarity potions.

Shaman gets insanely powerful as a box, especially on OoW with all their stat cap breaking buffs group avatar. the best dps are monks if you want to control them, or mage/necro if you just want low maintenance dps. coth is useful with a large box group, as are ports. If you get a porting class go wiz because their dps is better than Druid, and cleric/shaman gives you plenty of heals.

Monk needs very little control to maximize dps in oow. You can autofollow them on the tank and just use the tank to position mobs in between himself and the monk. With autoskill now, all you need is one button to assist and the monk will do what you need him to do. Occasionally a second hotkey for discs on a burn. You never have to worry about mana, or sitting/standing. In my opinion, it is way easier to box a monk for low maintenance dps than any caster class.