Make Bard class fun again

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Starkxx, Oct 6, 2019.

  1. Nniki Augur

    The change is to remove the proximity detriment, so you can once again stand right next to a mob you have aggro on and still receive the invisibility effect.

    The "1s to 2.5 minutes" was a range covering all the classes he listed, not an increase from 1s to 2.5 minutes. Bards will still have the 1s reuse.
    Zunnoab, code-zero and Starkxx like this.
  2. zhay Journeyman

    hi again
    You also need to look at what useful AA we got the last few years - it is kind of only small improvement and development of the bard class

    I am a main, as bard but play other toons - and to be honest they got much more abilities added then my bard in many expansions

    It might be that more people play those other classes , but if EQ still want bard class around, they need to work on this class too, to make it more interesting to play.

    I know it might be a question about resources or knowledge in the dev team, to why the state of bard is, as it is today - but as it was said earlier in this post- whatever AA we got in the last few expansions, are really not useful in the day-to-day gameplay

    zhay
  3. Maedhros High King

    We only have 8. Wtb 1 more bard to attain the Holy grail.
    Funky likes this.
  4. yosco Augur


    I thought they got rid of the timer.... is there really a 2.5 min refresh?
  5. yosco Augur


    I have a 105 bard ... former main ... who I'm sure I could dust off lol Has a tink mask and everything!
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  6. code-zero Augur

    It said 1 second to 2.5 minutes and Bards are the only class that has a 1 second refresh. So, we can spam that fade key as long as we have the mana to do it!
  7. Zunnoab Augur

    People answered this really well.

    The main recent thing that annoys me is the outrageous factor of ten increase to Dissonant Chord's timer. Hopefully increasing its level cap isn't forgotten again. It was and is a useful and fun ability. Enough to help in a pinch but not enough to outright tank for an extended period. That five minute reuse is unreasonable.

    The other thing is a design issue, and the need to be moderate with immunities. They thankfully increased the level cap on Lure to match mezz. It is a fun and useful ability and thier ruining it made switching to my cleric much easier on raids. (Prior to the more reasonable state it's in now.)

    I don't know about the static zones but two raid ones stand out:
    Empyr doesn't pointlessly block pull abilities on base pop, but Esianti does on most or all mobs.

    Also Reparm's burnt bones can be pulled.

    My big concern is yet more mob immunities blocking fun abilities, and potentially pointlessly overzealous use of them like with Esianti base pop and Lure. Some immunities make sense and add variety. Too many is like rolling back time to the few years they went crazy with immunities, around GoD.
  8. Nniki Augur

    I think that's probably the best way to describe bards: a shadow of their former self. That's not to say bards don't provide significant enhancement to others or haven't seen advancements, but areas of the class have either been chiseled away, not been kept up over the years, or have just been left behind.
    • Group/Raid resists - Not a thing anymore
    • Debuffs - Resist debuffs covered by other classes majority of the time (aside from an occasional tash clicky), snare not needed, slow not necessary between slow mitigation and tanks face rolling content these days, and everyone has dispel clickies (bards actually had a unique assortment of dispel songs but were left out of the beneficial dispels)
    • Mez - Enchanters at this point have Single Target, Targeted AE, Target Ring AE, PBAE, Defensive Proc, etc. Bards have Single Target and a PBAE that they can't even always keep refreshed.
    • Regen - Out of combat regen and various other abilities have made this not as big of a role anymore; Dichotomic was way too OP when released (I think that was an issue with the target type set rather than the values it had), but I think it added some excitement to the class while it lasted
    • Pulling - Role necessity has declined (bards can still perform excellently here); Although, can't even use DA songs to avoid spells a lot of times now as dots and mez effects these days go right through it and not much in the way to mitigate the damage (20-minute timers)
    • Overhaste - Items have encroached on bard's 25% over time; 17% is available via Ancient Flames
    • Group Hundred Hands - Beastlords have become kings in this area with Dichotomic and Ruaabri's Fury (they're like Oprah handing out cars)
    • Run speed - Latest raid mount exceeds AA
    • Fading Memories - Fade given to everyone; although, still without a doubt the most powerful
    • Kiting - While not just a bard thing and never something devs were historically fans of, with mobs casting the spells they do now, summoning, and inflation of hp, it's typically not a thing; bards have also received plenty of adjustments to keep them in check over the years from nerfing AE detrimental songs to charm range to the recent vainglorious shout change
    • Cast times - There have been minor reductions across the board, but in general, bard songs are still pretty much "3-second" cast times whereas other classes are seeing cast times under 1 second; CC/debuff/pulling abilities at the very least could use adjustments to keep pace with the faster gameplay
    But, as long as bards keep playing Aria and click Fierce Eye and Epic, everyone is happy. ;)
  9. Zunnoab Augur

    Things going through DA should indeed be a rare exception.

    On the AE mezz front on raids, the Aalishai mezz adds are low enough to be hit by the 110 and 105 AE mez. I find it unlikely that wasn't intended. I also like how they used charm in a fun way in TBL raids.

    The patch boasting hundreds of newly charm immune mobs was terrible messaging at its worst. Not quite as bad as the TDS patch that claimed to allow more CC when it really made most things even more immune.

    They need to keep the faster play in check and not made the game too twitchy. They seem to have a ten second minimum on emotes, which I suspect is an effort on that front, and UEE is a final boss and an exception. That is another event with fun CC stuff, though the tuning is beyond this topic's subject.

    More/all clickies losing cast times, melody resuming after them, fixing the clicky casts bugging and locking song gems, or all of the above would be nice.

    Overall, I think bards are better off than the dark ages in the peak of the outrageous fun-sapping nerfs.
    Elyssanda likes this.
  10. Vumad Cape Wearer

    Nniki... Your posts in this thread have been excellent.
    Nniki likes this.
  11. Spellfire Augur

    Dicho was a lot of fun when released :D but yes, rather OP.
  12. HoodenShuklak Augur

    0 cast time (so it won't break melody) selo AA would be good and not too complicated. Nice.
    Elyssanda likes this.
  13. Benito EQ player since 2001.

    Can we get Instrument Finesse III foci that's not locked behind raids for bards (think VoA not TBM)? (Finesse II caps at 110). The instruments could be rare-very rare drops from specific named like in VoA. In terms of opening it up to group play vs. keeping instruments locked behind raids is that one could argue that bards will surrender a hand (weapon) in order to equip instruments.

    Edit: Devs could also add a "cute" effect on the new instruments like an 2-tick duration/5 minute-recast recovery damage mitigation buff or tiny group endurance recovery? Instant cast, of course. And, maybe, must-equip...

    Splitting this specific foci topic to "Hybrid" section (but this post #33 can notify interested parties):

    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...-not-locked-behind-raids.259803/#post-3826239
  14. Zunnoab Augur

    We actually do have a resist song that is effective on some events. At first I was reluctant to talk about it here lest the Eye of Sauron see something is marginally useful and remove it, as tuning seems to go lately, but this is from two expansions ago and avoiding talking about anything of use out of fear of what the developers will do isn't particularly productive.

    The spry sonata line, unless I was under an extreme placebo effect, does in fact help with resistible spells. The particular event it was useful on was the Ancient Dragon. It doesn't 100% block the AE, but I'm pretty sure it does notably increase the chance to resist it. I suspect a similar effect exists for other resistible effects. Perhaps almost everything is unresistible now though. Kor-Sha Laboratory doesn't feel old to me, even if it quite obviously is.

    On a more positive note, at least the Lyre Leap increase will be nice. Then again, perhaps I'm missing a 1000% reuse time bump in the test notes, as seems to be the unfortunate habit lately for AAs (literally for Dissonant Chord).
  15. yosco Augur

    I just wanted to highlight this fantastic post again. The issues Nniki highlights are many of the reasons I switched my main from a bard to a SK. I saw ability after ability overtly nerfed or left to die a slow death due to neglect. The overpowered dissident ability had me dust off the bard again for my box group, but when that was adjusted I tucked him back into his corner. With the trend towards giving everyone certain abilities (fade, leap, etc.) and expanding others to multiple classes (nniki mentioned Hundred Hands), bards are losing the “jack of all trades” niche and are left with “master of none.”

    I’d love to play the bard again, but it has to be under better conditions. Devs, I implore you to look beyond the cookie cutter bs bards have been getting and find new or enhanced ways to make them relevant again.
  16. BadPallyGuildLeader Augur

    For as much sh4t as I talk about bards its the only class that I still have and find a spot in both the tank group and dps\experience group for my setup. Even with just melodybotage its enough. I wish they would do at least something in the area of respectable melee dps.
  17. yosco Augur

    I wanted to add more to my post, but I was typing it out on the bus and getting frustrated....

    Bottom line is I think with many classes gaining abilities, especially ADPS abilities, that they previously didn't have, bards have seen their role as the "jack of all trades" erode significantly. Nniki highlighted at the end what bards are good for now.... Aria/aura, fierce eye, and epic clickies. Other classes get much stronger ADPS abilities that are now much easier to push not just across groups but across raids (Tranquil Blessing + .... ). Other niche abilities, like fade, which was so revolutionary in its prime (PoP), are now available in some form to all other classes. Changes to AEs and adding mob count limits also further limits a bard's utility because other classes have stronger AE abilities.

    I loved my bard, but its tough to justify playing one in the game anymore, unless you're looking to min/max a group in a raid. They aren't as fun and unique as they used to be.
  18. Eggolas Augur

    Is there any doubt that Nniki has taken the standard from Thott?

    Thank you for all you do, Nniki.
    Nniki likes this.