Sk idea

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Sithsonn, Jul 14, 2019.

  1. sojero One hit wonder

    Terrors are a one trick pony and crushes do dps as well, we give up dps to do terrors. And that 18% chance to cast an aa is random, we cannot control or rely on it. U need to think about it and realize 80% of sk healing is over healing, we have no control of the random, and needs to be bigger because of that. Paladin are given more control over their healing, and bring a bigger asset to group raid game, are selfish sk supposed to suffer because ones a team player and the other isnt? You keep underestimating the paladin class and its abilities.
  2. Lianeb Augur

    As you keep downplaying SKs abilities

    Sorry I LoLed
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  3. sojero One hit wonder

    Where have I said sk abilities are weak? We have an amazing kit, said so already.

    I believe it was eli in the aa chats that said sk get bigger because ours are random procs, though I could be wrong.
  4. Sithsonn Elder

    Dont know how the thread got to this, no one here saying pallies self heal better than sks, its been known sks are the ones that have the self healing abilities to Lone wolf it if needed, and it is known that pallies are used more in raids and beneficial to the raid. Look at the MS roster, 6 pallies to our 2 sks and you make it known the amount of ae healing you guys do.
  5. Sithsonn Elder

    Also the ability to out heal a cleric on a warrior if need to fit that role
  6. Sithsonn Elder

    But we found out that it is true today, that all you gotta do is auto attack on a shadowknight and you will be healed!
  7. Sithsonn Elder

    Honestly what I think the big problem is Glyph of Dragon Scales. Don't even wanna go into how over-powered that AA is, screw all this self-healing talk, lets talk about something thats really broken
  8. Aelen Augur



    Knight’s Synergy is shared.

    Spurn is shared. Soft conflict with Shining Defense

    Cascading Theft of Defense procs less than 1 time in 5 off of terrors. Using terrors for defense is a bad plan. Soft conflict with Shining Defense. It’s something incidental akin to your heal proc off of stuns, not a major source of power.

    Tylix’s Skin compares to Preservation of Rodcet filling the same niche. Tylix’s Skin has a soft conflict with Shining Defense. Preservation of Rodcet has a hard conflict with Druid Reptile, slots for defensive procs is worth a pass to improve usability for a lot of tools across classes, Magician Veil for War/SK is another I’d like looked at. Tylix’s Skin scales up in value as you fight weaker creatures, and down in value as you fight stronger ones. Preservation of Rodcet scales up in value with Paladin SPA 120 abilities, and against weaker enemies, and down somewhat less against stronger ones. Tylix’s Skin has better QoL tweaks due to longer duration and more counters, Preservation of Rodcet could use some movement toward parity there.

    The listed abilities are not synergistic with eachother. If enough things are tied together they might reach a threshold at which they go from useless to useful, or useful to great, but they don’t naturally create value where none was, and there’s some negative synergy between them and the cleric ability Shining Defense. AOTI and Preservation of Rodcet is an example of synergy.

    The damage increasing as things peel off is because they recoded things a few years back to pick the best one to peel from first.

    If you want to advocate for something like CTOD, even though you already have something similar on your stuns with a heal, I won’t argue with you, but it isn’t a great avenue to pursue. I don’t think your stun proc group heal has been good since they fixed the way it used to be exploitable, the randomness is just too meh.
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  9. Aelen Augur



    Your best crush is the 107 crush, not the 110 crush. It’s cheaper, faster refreshing and better agro. Meaning it’s the best at doing what a Crush is actually supposed to do, get agro. It’s also more single click agro than the best Terror by 30%. I don’t know why your 110 Crush has so many penalties as an agro tool for the pitiful damage on it, but it’s still the same hate as the top Terror. You can also proc Dragonmagic for a chance at more hate off your Crush, doesn’t work on Terrors.

    Making your crushes instant cast seems fine, but that’s up to the devs. Feels smoother to be able to click the hate spell while moving/finishing moving.

    You also don’t have exactly the same play pattern or agro tool kit to an SK generally. Your hate DoT, since RoS when they changed it, and the fixing of hate mods to hate over time abilities, is fairly strong. It’s per tick value is 80% higher than the SK version, and essentially is most of a terror per tick for a minute for only one cast. Used carefully in a chainpull situation, or spread around mezzed/rooted targets, that’s fairly powerful. It also complements reasonably well the frontloaded nature of your 107 crush, and your FoD AA which fits between spells with a 9 second cooldown.
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  10. Aelen Augur



    You are most likely using Tylix’s Horror. Different buff sources of Weapon Leech, SPA178, don’t stack. This has a soft conflict with other Leech effects, and is fairly random. It’s also in conflict with the mana leech version. It’s where most of your autoattack parse is coming from.

    Touch of the Curse got a tweak for better use a year or two ago. Blessing of Life is fairly weak and should’ve gotten a similar look, probably an increase in proc rate. Although yours scales up with your many SPA 120 abilities.

    I’ll also point out that 2,131,846 divided by 300 is 7106 HPS, and they discontinued the leech proc for knights on current gear I believe.
  11. Aelen Augur




    The primary culprit here is tank Stances, so you’re likely cutting off your nose to spite your face here. But you have a point, ideally a new SPA should be created specifically for the purpose of throttling SPA 178 on 2hand stance and Dual wield stance. Not negative 178, that disables the whole SPA and makes it hurt you, like how slows disable haste and then take effect. But a new SPA that would invert the increase in damage the stance gives in a reduction to the effective value of the SPA 459 on the stances. The 210/100 on 2hand getting a complementary 100/210 to 178’s effect. 200/100 on dual wield getting 100/200. Basically pretending that buff didn’t happen as it pertains to leech healing. I’d leave the sword and board one alone for all 3 tanks.

    Further, I do think a rework of Mortal Coil makes sense. Having a tank disc on a killshot is a problem from two directions at once. One, if your tank discs are windowed strength, having a way to make that window permanent is an issue. Two, not being able to activate the ability on demand means outside of soloing or cheesing, you leave that on the table. I’d remove it from being a killshot proc for a perma-swarm, and make it an activated ability with a 15 or 20 minute cooldown, so SK’s had access to it in raids and missions that don’t let you try to bait a proc of it, or without going out of your way to bait one before engaging.

    Comparably, SK Epic and Pal Epic were where these sort of class defining effects started, and both have access to a forced activation on the Epic that still works today. But Paladins grew tremendously along this line with Spires and Inquisitor abilities such that they have 95% uptime on it solo, 100% if you count the aura, and can stack different sources of it functionally. SPA 120 even mods a lot of unfocusable heals, it’s quite strong. I wouldn’t go for that kind of uptime for SK’s, but making sure it was continued as an activated tool instead of a killshot would make sense.

    For reference, the SPA 120 abilities of a Paladin let them fluctuate from 5% for 30 seconds with the aura alone, to a 19:30 cycle from as low as 37% to as high as 150% when stacking Epic, Aura, AOTI and Spire. As part of a team of 2 working together, as long as they aren’t being the MT’s buff , two can work together to cycle a permanent, 100% uptime fluctuation from 65% at the lowest to again, 150% at the highest.

    The ability is naturally a bit less selfish than the SK leech effect, so all of the power that it adds doesn’t show up on the Paladin's personal parse—it instead also mods the incoming heals of priests and many, many procs and other small heal sources. But that’s still power, just sort of fitting with the more other-focused-ness that a Paladin has going on.

    Basically this line is the Paladin’s parallel to SK melee tap, but less intense, more cooperative, and more spread out/higher uptime.
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  12. Aelen Augur



    They are better here. They can only grow so much ahead of everyone without breaking knights or non-tanks though. Culminating Stand is 45% to the knight variant’s 36%. 55% incoming versus 64% incoming, functionally 16% in favor of the Warrior. It also lasts 50% longer, and cools down 14% faster, for a net advantage in uptime of about 71% to the warrior on top of the power advantage. Knights have self healing, Warriors are better at mitigating.

    Dissident, Pain Doesn’t Hurt and such are nice as well.

    Fort works from the back and doesn’t require a shield, and can be replaced with a riposte disc, and Flash of Anger is on a 90 second cooldown and doesn’t require a shield like Shield Flash.

    I’m not really sure warriors are hurting, but if they are it probably needs to be some kind of short re-use rune style thing, or an increase to the ones they have. Something to match the stream of heals play pattern that SK/Pal use, not just more and bigger full scale modification of the value of the heals the priest are pumping into them through better mitigation.

    X*Y and X*(Y/Z)+C can’t really match at different values when you have to consider different gear levels.
  13. Aelen Augur



    I agree that it’s extraordinarily strong, but I don’t think they’re going to address how high the spell burst is in the expansion to compensate if they nerf it at this point, so I’d be against them coming in and doing it now. They do that way too much, screwing people who didn’t farm things and gear up while it was available. I think it’s also intentional—for the tanking tool to be useful, it has to actually change how well you tank, unlike the old glyph it replaced. It’s not like DPS where the incremental value guarantees it’ll always see use. It also gives more reason for people to log in between raids and play with people who may not have gotten everything done yet.

    One thing I would say, is since it’s primarily a mitigation ability, it disproportionately helps knights over warriors. You could probably lightly tap down the SPA 451, and add something like 5% leech/SPA 178, and 20% Inquisitor/SPA 120 to even it out a bit. Or whatever number makes sense. The SPA178 conflicts with other sources of leech, but SPA 120 actually stacks with itself.

    Or if 178/120 are too scary, maybe a regen or self heal proc or something.
  14. Aelen Augur




    Keeping with Pallies other-focused theme, I’ve kinda thought it’d be cool if pallies got a version of this that was basically a 2 minute aura that gave a big chunk of purple HP to the raid around them. Sets up more chances for a rescue, which a lot of the kit seems to play to. I’d name it Beacon in the Night. +1 to number of Beacon named AA abilities Pallies get. Keep going until you can see them from Luclin.



    Personally I’d see literally every single target heal for pallies function like the new Lay On Hands, where it works either targeted or targets target.

    That gives them the unresistable bypass, they’re slightly harder to interrupt than Censure, the heals are actually slightly or significantly better than the Censure line, and you can technically already use them this way but it’s an entirely unreasonable playstyle to add all those target swap clicks to a class that needs to be targeting a mob most of the time anyway. Hell on the hands and keyboard.

    It also produces a healing option that doesn’t have the hatelist hate reduction of the Censure line without removing the option to use Censure that way.
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  15. p8aa Elder

    Cherry picking stuff in a post and making it like the sentences you quoted were next to each others, just lol.

    Paladins can also click at the same time Protective Devotion and Spurn. You can click at the same time many SPA 162 abilities, but the effects won't stack. The game will calculate which SPA 162 ability gives the min dmg, and will apply the result. So no, SPA 162 are never synergistic.
  16. Liljit Augur


    I'm not being disrespectful, just saving space on the thread for quoting purposes here.

    Tylix's Skin is absolutely hands down better than Preservation line in both duration and counters and as a form of mitigation. 6700 hp mitigation rune vs 3200 hp heal.
    Our hate mod is also tied to preservation being up, which is chewed by counters where yours is tied to gift of hemofax from touch of hemofax lifetap. Our mod is 15% hate...yours is 25% and doesn't fade from counters.

    Comparing Blessing of Life and Touch of the Cursed. One does zero dps and the other does 4500 dd and heals for 75% of the damage dealt up to 60k hp.
    I can easily see why Touch of the Cursed out healed Blessing of Life. You mention that ours scales up, but so does yours, or it wouldn't out heal ours based on the parsing. Also...why would they put a 60k cap on it if it didn't scale up....75% of 4500 is 3,375 hp. So essentially, that 4500 dd potentially hits for more than 80K as a DD but caps the healing at only 60K.


    [Sun Aug 04 21:36:14 2019] You begin casting Touch of the Cursed XXX.
    [Sun Aug 04 21:36:14 2019] You feel your life force drain away. You healed Azazal for 0 (60000) hit points by Touch of the Cursed XXX.
    [Sun Aug 04 21:36:14 2019] You hit an inferno flare for 133117 points of magic damage by Touch of the Cursed XXX. (Lucky Critical)
    Highest comparative I could find from a raid night, so full on focus'd and buffed:
    [Sun Aug 18 21:04:46 2019] You begin casting Blessing of Life XXIII.
    [Sun Aug 18 21:04:46 2019] You are blessed with life. You healed Allayna for 0 (42311) hit points by Blessing of Life XXIII. (Lucky Critical)
    So even with all the SPAs "boosting" paladin healing, our proc is inferior in both dps and healing.
    The post where you talk about paladin up-time for healing....
    Let's start with overhealing does 0. ZERO. Doesn't add mitigation, doesn't add dps, nada. Perhaps they should address that with all priests, as I've suggested in other threads, but it would be a huge undertaking by DBG.
    I'm not downplaying the abilities of paladins. Splash is great, I've noted that in many posts and I think that improving on it is warranted, having it toggle on/off the cure component, having it increase in actual heal value, etc. GoL was a huge QoL improvement last year as was LoH switching to HTT style, but I feel that those were added to pacify us since our basic abilities have been stagnant for years now.
    Let's talk about actual defensive/mitigation/survivability up-time on an SK vs PAL.
    You mentioned mortal coil going to a click. I'm really not sure why they took away mortal coil residue, which prevented it from chain proc. Mortal coil also used to have counters. I'm not asking for either of those things. I'm saying that you can't say that SKs are not out healing themselves vs any other class in the game because of their toolkit. I'd say that our "version" Blessing of the Faithful...is very underwhelming.
    Mortal Coil - 30% chance to proc - adds 1200 base AC and returns 70% damage done as healing for 2 minutes. That get's extended to over 4 minutes with AA.
    Blessing of the Faithful - 45% chance to proc - adds 1000 base AC and increases base melee damage by 175%. Also extended to 4 min.
    The dps boost is laughable and the AC added is.....83.
    On to crush/terror comparison. I wasn't implying or stating that SKs rely or use terror for the rune, but it's additional tool in the belt that paladins do not have. It is superior in that you can CAST ON THE RUN since it is instant and due to the low low low mana cost, far lower than combat mana regen, you can always cast it. Paladins Refute line mimics the SK Refute line, so unsure what you're saying about us having something super powerful there. Ours does more on the per tick but with TBL focus AA it was the first hate/aggro that was semi spammable with a 0 cast time for paladins.
    SKs have terrors, and refute (like paladins do), we both have dicho/dissident and you have a handful of other instacast in your toolkit, like the bond line. Of which can be cast on multiple mobs if you load a couple of them and easily heal you for 80-100k per tick, something our hot recourse cannot from force of mercy.


    Bottom line from me.
    I wish/hope/dream that the devs do not give major upgrades to SKs while completely ignoring the paladin abilities or even the mirrored paladin abilities that SKs have.

    PS: Vampiric Consumption proc is generally on the knight 2H and for some reason it is on the melee 2H this year, neither knight wields this.
  17. sojero One hit wonder


    That I believe based on past dev answers would never happen, they want that choice to use the big heals you have to swap targets. but you can always ask.
  18. Aelen Augur

    I think you read more attacks and disagreements than I wrote, or I just wrote too much. I'll just point to a few things.

    Example - Tylix Skin for 7k, when Shining Defense (10%) from a cleric is on, you get hit for 30k:
    Shining Defense would have reduced 3k out of that.
    Marginal value of Tylix Skin proc is 4k.

    That's an example of Tylix Skin underperforming. The flip side is, it cannot overperform. Not a complaint, just a note. It does get proportionately better against weaker targets, like Rodcet.

    Example - Preservation of Rodcet starting at 3.2k.
    With 2000 Heal Amount add 500 to 3.7k.
    With just Armor of the Inquisitor and Pally Aura it is 6.5k.
    It can crit to 13k. It follows up with a little bit of HoT for 2k sometimes.
    It could go higher with more SPA 120 on.

    I'm stating that they're not the same, but pretty similar. The counter/duration thing I agreed and brought up myself, it should be increased to similar to the SK for Quality of Life purposes.

    On Touch of the Cursed vs Blessing of Life I agree yours could use a bump, I was commenting ours got changed to work better a while back. It used to be a regular tap, now it's a somewhat better tuned Resource Tap for more consistency.

    The Bond DoT you mention is rarely worth using at it's current tuning, and with the 10s recast and 3s lockout. I think it was supposed to be really strong back before they fixed the bug where resource taps ignored their caps.

    On Refute, the fact that you have a ton more power in it to me just means your aggro pattern plays different. Not really a complaint.
  19. sojero One hit wonder

    Skin is a rune so it does not get modded, preservation is a heal that does get modded and thus can do a lot more than 3200 when you are running your heal mods, and has a heal over time. again your downplaying this Allayna!

    Yes we gave the better hate mod by design, and ours takes 2 buff slots where yours does 1.

    Were you tanking during these, were you using your healing boosts during these? for some reason i have a hard time trusting you on this, I'll wait for another source :)

    Overhealing is the name of the game for sk, we do more overhealing than any priest, at least my parses show it.


    The problem with splash is they want you to have to make a choice, thus the reason they started adding in detrimental to cures in raid mechanics. Splash is to powerful most of the time on raids, it broke many raids, and they are slowly addressing it, I highly doubt that they want to give you the toggle command. I know Eli specifically said no to that during the IRC chats, but he is gone so thngs can change from his vision.


    They took mortal coil residue away because they took the ability to leeach from repost off of it. It is still powerful, but nothing like what we used to be able to do. I could fully see a boost to blessing of the faithful because pally dps needs to come up a bit, but in raids it wont help you, and in fast dps groups it wont help you, same as sk MC. its a solo'ing only type thing.

    Paladin refute line does 12k agro on first hit vs sk 7k then both are 7k per tick after that for rank 1, and I believe is instant for both, so you can use it in place of our terrors without issues, and it has close to the same mana cost, very slightly higher as it has a hate over time. I use refute line when kiting and cycle mobs as it helps keep stuff from peeling off better than terrors alone.

    Other sk can chime in, but with spell slots being a premium and debuff slots so covented I no longer ever mem a bond spell. In group game stuff doesnt live long enough to have real effects from it, and in raid you dont want it on many adds as they may be mezzed. So I will conceed it has the potential to be great, in reality I havent found it nearly as useful as I would hope, some soloing applications is all it has at best.


    I agree I hope they do not ignore paladins again either. The lack of upgrades has been a bad thing for pally and should not have been overlooked.
  20. Liljit Augur


    You often deflect that paladin's have an ability like refute we'll use as an example, so we're on equal footing. You ignore the fact that refute and refute is a good comparison and saying we get refute so terror's don't come into play....well, they do. Terror should be compared to crush, refute to refute.

    The severe downplaying of mortal coil here is troubling. You absolutely proc it on raids. It refreshes itself on raids. There are adds on raids and many many ways to get yourself a killshot on these adds. Our raiding SKs will roll epic until they get a mortal coil proc and then it's gravy train time.

    How does your hate mod take 2 buff slots - it's 25% on gift of hemofax.

    Bond line was an example of another part of your toolkit. I know just as well as you do that spell gems are at a premium. I wouldn't expect a raid sk to bond a raid boss as it takes away from the debuff limit.

    I am not saying give SKs nothing in the new expansion. I think a focus AA that allowed your AE lifetap spell the ability to heal your group would be pretty awesome.

    But when it comes to the following:

    Tanking: Superior
    Self healing: Superior
    DPS: Superior
    Aggro: Superior
    Mana usage: Superior
    Group healing: Inferior
    Raid healing: Inferior

    I am tired of the "don't talk about how OP SKs are", mentality though.

    PS: We haven't even gotten into harmonious, alliances, dicho discussion and the disparity between the two classes.

    And I'm not downplaying the paladin abilities. We can stun lock a mob, that's amazing, if they continue to make mobs that are not stun immune. We can be clutch in a raid AE heal via splash or GoL rotation, again amazing changes to improve our desirability in raids. We can combat rez with the OMM rez stick and most people in raids get a rez from a paladin since it's required in our guild to obtain that item. I just don't see how some AE overhealing = being blunted in so many other aspects.