PvP TLP: A Serious Look for DBG and Community

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Hexus, Jul 14, 2019.

  1. Hexus Journeyman

    First off, I hope we can all at least agree on what should be obvious (I really mean no offense by this DBG, just making a point here), robust customer service like we had back in the day with daily active GMs and Guides (PLURAL) is never coming back. I only point this out to acknowledge there simply isn't enough GM staff to act on or deter, let's say in general, less than desirable behavior as far as the majority of server players are concerned.

    I tend to think that decision-makers at DBG and a lot of core community players are simply unaware of how the PvP servers were in comparison to blue servers to appreciate that under the current circumstances of TLPs, PvP would actually help in-game situations far more than hurt (eg. to deter behavior like botting, owning entire zones through boxing, etc.).

    Botting would be a lost cause with PvP in open zones on a heavily populated server, hell most of the botting scripts will pause when players are within a certain proximity so you could then easily kill them.

    Yes, you now have to deal with PvP when you're normally a relaxed bluebie, I get it. Guess what that reinforces though? Grouping and guilding up with other SINGLE box players, the exact thing these current truebox servers claim to try to do but fail to hit the mark in my opinion.

    So with PvP you're reinforcing a lot of the behavior you want, deterring/combatting a lot of behavior you don't want, while having to deal with some occasional unbalanced PvP that is mitigated by the modern prevalence of instances among other things like universal chat, player alliances, level discrepancy (Rallos Zek rules), etc.

    There are many more ways DBG could intelligently choose to mitigate the painful parts of PvP, like making corpse runs nonexistent right off the bat for example, or temporarily blue-flagging someone while on a corpse run, etc. while still retaining the positives.

    To DBG, I understand marketing a PvP TLP to many in the playerbase who always disliked it has challenges, but at least open up a dialogue and if you make it a point to underline steps you will take to ease the difficulty (see prior paragraph), and prominently show the benefits that it brings and why players should strongly consider it, I think many many people who really don't want to deal with things like botting would go for it.

    Keep in mind we already train each other, mem blur mobs to ks, strip charm off mobs to kill owners, etc. So why not trade the passive aggressive crap for actual PvP and get the benefits that come with it?

    Ultimately, I say stop pointlessly complaining about constant botting (seeing posts all the time now) and instead give a chance (ie. lend support to) to an idea that would actually seriously hinder it if not kill it all together (again, especially on a populated server in open zones).

    I know this is not a new topic but I just really don't think it's been given a fair look. I won't be making a post in defense of PvP on TLPs again so don't worry, one and done!

    Thanks,
    Hexus
  2. Tierdal Augur

    nopt gonmna happen
    Nolrog likes this.
  3. Hexus Journeyman

    I'm aware it's unlikely given the treatment of PvP in this game but I had to get it off my chest.
    potatoface likes this.
  4. Ginix Augur

  5. TLP Addict Augur

    I normally mock the idea of a PvP TLP for reasons that are obvious to all but the dozen or 2 hardcore PvPers.

    But when you put it like that it actually does sound quite appealing, I would definitely make it my mission to drive botters and kronolords off the server, it would be a lot of fun.

    But yeah still about 0.01% chance of it happening, good pitch though.
    Brawl, potatoface and Hexus like this.
  6. Bobbybick Only Banned Twice

    Roll a die every year around February. If it comes up 1-5 expect another Phinny clone, if it lands on 6 maybe we'll get an FV Phinny clone but still probably not.
    potatoface likes this.
  7. Nessirfiti Augur

    Only if they un-do the changes that stopped fansy from being an actual thing. I'd play on a PVP server then. I'd never get past level 5, but I'd play.
    potatoface likes this.
  8. Hexus Journeyman


    If a PvP server had a chance in the first place, I very highly doubt people would be up for Sullon Zek rules (or lack of them) unfortunately.
  9. potatoface Journeyman

    I'm down. Let's party.
    Hexus likes this.
  10. Barder-mangler Augur

    A pretty fresh take on why it makes sense. I’d play this for sure, even if pvp wasn’t the primary goal, it fixes a lot of the grief and problems on current TLPs oddly enough.
    You’d probably want to flag EC as non pvp though.
  11. Aegir Augur

    The game wasn't built for PvP. The only reason they did create PvP servers in the first place, was because so many UltimaOnline players wanted to try this game out with a PvP ruleset.

    However, I've heard amazing stories from the old PvP days, but that was more about the fact that you were a N00b and besides that, had to think about other players attacking you. The Risk vs. Reward on those old PVP servers - with the little knowledge of the game back then, was immense and epic... there's no way you can re-create that experience today.

    With current structure, the casual player base will quickly die out as the popular content will be monopolized by wolfpacks eating sheep groups. Eventually, there will be no sheeps left on the server with only one Alpha-Wolf-Pack-Guild left whom will enjoy a few expac of sandboxing the server before it dries out.

    Not so long ago, the EQ Dev staff had a Q&A with the a core of the community, and the PVP Progression server thing popped up; The Reply was: As long as the population on the live PVP Servers are as low as they are, there won't be a TLP PvP server.

    To be honest, I don't think there are any devs left in the team that wants to spent their time on the PvP aspect of EQ either. Again, there's a small core of this community that always yells for it, but the game as it is right now, isn't tuned/balanced for PvP at all.
  12. Scorrpio Augur

    As been mentioned repeatedly before, EQ has a PvP server. If you wish to demonstrate your interest in EQ PvP, roll a character on Zek and play there. Once Zek is "heavily populated", DBG might consider PvP TLP a worthwhile investment.

    And your rose-glasses tirade on how PvP will cure the ills of botting just makes me laugh. How easy do you think would it be to alter the bot scripts to treat any approaching player as a priority target? Good luck getting anywhere close to a bot army.
    Miss_Jackie and Dawdle like this.
  13. Dawdle Augur

    As if everyone's PvP skills are going to solve this problem lol. I only laugh a little but anyone that played on Zek knows that boxers PvP and a PvP server in this day an age means much more then most people can handle.

    Forget not boxing this server and nothing will make your day like getting warped on by a group of SK's in the middle of a zone.

    A PvP server would only problem up all your problems. Some people call whats going on with botters grief, maybe it is, but it's totally different then actually being hunted the minute you step outside a safe zone by people running active hacks.
  14. Hexus Journeyman

    A lot of misinformation and lack of context in the last few posts.

    Active hacks used to be a huge problem when there were actual populations on PvP servers (Population being a whole other discussion, with Sony merging servers onto Zek with 4 lvl ruleset way too late after so many already left). It's not as much the case anymore.

    The few people that provide their own plugins or buy private active plugins will much more quickly get banned than anything else because it's so easy to look back on logs for GMs now. It's a surefire way to get banned hence why mainstream distributors don't provide them any longer.

    You guys talk like bot groups were praying on people in PvP at some point, that's revisionist history and makes no sense. Boxed groups are not a threat in PvP against any actual single player driven groups, they will get wrecked.

    Back in the day that famous Samdancer guy was the biggest boxer on PvP and yea if he targeted one single person he could kill them easily, but it was usually after one single person attacked his team. Many times a clever single person could ruin his while preparation for a raid target by themselves (I personally know this). It wasn't easy for him to deal with even one decent PvPer to the point he would offer them to join his raid to roll on loot if they kept harassing him. PvP and boxing don't mix well, period.

    There is a thing called RULESET as well. On Zek, which someone mentioned, you had to be within 4 levels to attack someone. This idea of a roaming group of boxed SKs killing everyone is hilarious. That group would get annihilated unless we're talking PoP onward with FULLY raid geared SKs (keep in mind DT, MB, LB were nerfed way back then to only do max 40% I believe), and even then it's not like it's something people simply cannot deal with whatsoever especially if they're boxing, they will almost definitely have members killed themselves.

    I can't recall any predatory boxer ever in my years of PvPing in EQ. Boxers would often afk on their team or gate the rest out to PvP on just their main.

    A current day TLP PvP server with AoCs so everyone has a chance at gear is NOT THE SAME as a Live PvP server in years past nevermind today, by a long stretch, they have nothing to do with each other. It's blatantly clear someone has no idea what they're talking about with these statements.

    Honestly the guild balance discussion doesn't even really become a huge problem until PoP with all the resists from elemental gear. Even then, the availability of gear is so much higher now I don't see it being as much of an issue as it began to be in years past with only a couple guilds running things.

    Much of these issues of past of the biggest guilds denying raid targets can easily be mitigated with creative solutions by DBG today, it's simply not an issue. The biggest guilds already get all the open world targets as it is now anyway so that's not an argument.

    The absolute worst balance issues probably start with wizard instant nukes onwards in my opinion, which I think were nerfed. But overall damage just becomes ridiculous in later expansions there's no doubt, it's not balanced at all and pointless to play Live as it is.

    Again though, we're not talking about Live. How many of these TLPs will make it to Live? That's so far ahead to even worry about and we have servers like Agnarr that are expansion locked, do that for the PvP server.

    Saying we need to populate the current Live server is like ignoring your house for 20 years then expecting someone to simply come clean it and have it looking brand new. It's ignorant and completely disingenuous to suggest.
    Brawl likes this.
  15. Ruhi Augur

    Most people dont care for PVP in everquest.

    EQ players are already a niche thing - I dont see devs wanting to make a server even more niche.

    also, the people calling for pvp servers are the type of people that want pnp thrown out the door - look at the amount of griping about camps being stolen or mobs being ks'd without pvp?

    ---- ALL IMO of course.

    On a side note - a whole guild on Selo's went red - level up there and go HAM.
  16. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    Considering the population of the one pvp server EQ has I don't think most of the people who bot to farm things for krono will bother with a pvp progression server in the first place as they will be unlikely to make much money from it.
    Hexus likes this.
  17. Hexus Journeyman

    I don't disagree with the griping as you say. I was trying to make a point that with some creative decisions you can mitigate the negatives more than has been done in the past. Again just spitballing, but maybe you go blue after being inactive for a period of time for instance is one thing that could be done.

    There was definitely a level of annoyance at previous posts suggesting botting would somehow get worse with PvP being an element which is simply not the case. And out of all the people to get banned so far on progression servers, those using active plugins like warping get banned the fastest now (was not the case when I played Live PvP, it's actually dealt with much faster now).

    I did see the guild on Selos but I was kind of addressing the botting problem and simply suggesting trading the passive aggressive griefing tactics for actual PvP where you at least have a chance to fight back.

    The Selos guild going red just makes the server more challenging, doesn't really add any other PvP aspects to it. Maybe I'd play with them, actually looking into new servers now, but not due to anything PvP related.
  18. Hexus Journeyman

    I do understand the concern that you're just trading one problem for another.

    I would like to point out though, the botting/boxing especially in relation to RMT doesn't seem to be something that DBG can easily mitigate with tweaks to their game, evidenced by the fact it's been so prevalent for years now.

    PvP is an aspect that would naturally hinder these practices while DBG will also have much more control over it by comparison. Progressive tweaks to the server could definitely have a positive effect on negative experiences.

    Someone in this thread brought up the Fansy the bard case which is a good example of this.
  19. Nothappening Lorekeeper

    35. Hey Holly, Question 1 - Will there ever be a PvP TLP ?

    Question 2 - Will there ever be a FV ruleset TLP server added?

    Question 3 - is Daybreak going to continue their Mobile Everquest for tablet/Ipad and if so can you access regular servers with this new game type on ur iPad or what not?

    Alan: Eyes… growing… tired… I started at the end and this must be question 4,343! And to top it all off, you had to ask three in one! Yes, I'm trying to make you feel bad. 1. Probably not. Very few people play on our PVP server as it is. 2. FV rules are a curse. You don't want that on your server. 3. We have a mobile EverQuest?

    https://www.firesofheaven.org/threads/everquest-ama-answered.10980/

    Guess y'all got to show them theres more than "very few" that want PVP. I think it would be a LOT of fun, could just be like a quarm server, short term test run.
  20. Hexus Journeyman

    Yea, that's just their nonconfrontational way of saying no and they don't feel like talking about it.

    I assume, maybe wrongly, that they know what others have already pointed out, the PvP server(s) was always treated like the redheaded stepchild which is part of the reason that lead to people abandoning them in greater and greater numbers. They never cared about them, giving minimal customer service and only doing some balance changes once in a blue moon which eventually stopped all together.

    So them not creating a PvP TLP now because no one plays on the server that they themselves ignore is laughable.

    Also, if current Live population was the deciding factor then it would render his opinion about a FV TLP server null and void since it's the highest population Live server currently. Population is not the reason, it's just an easy way out of a conversation they feel they're too busy to have.

    You're right though, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, especially when you're dealing with an overworked skeleton crew that doesn't have time for anything as it is, nevermind discussing the potential merits of a PvP TLP.

    This is just my sad attempt at trying ;p
    Brawl likes this.