Just going to say it, you are killing the game.

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by InnerDruid, May 6, 2019.

  1. Endaar Augur

    I wasn't raiding when RoF was current content, but RoV has been doing RoF as "retro raids" for the past few months, and I continue to be impressed with just how well-designed the progression was laid out. And to the point of others in this thread, there's still a reason to do RoF raids due to unique items that are still worthwhile to obtain.
  2. Tarvas Redwall of Coirnav, now Drinal

    This is true. It is probably the most frustrating thing in the world.
  3. smash Augur

    However it was showen as a bad idea, and at that time the expansions were bigger with more zones, today there only 3 tiers on total. each with lesser number of zones in. Most people were against that model, so it was continued a bit with cotf, and after that put into the grave.
  4. kizant Augur

    Is it 20 fails or just a trigger or two? I think the difference is important. If only one person is missing emotes and they fail say 4 times in a row causing the entire raid to lose each time while everyone else is doing fine. Then it makes sense to remove them from the task so they stop holding everyone else back. Whatever is wrong they need to figure it out for next time.

    And I really can't imagine someone getting removed for failing one or two emotes though so if people are saying that then I think they're probably exaggerating. Also, if someone in ROI did fail an emote 20 times in a row I do hope they would be guild removed. Even the 10th time in a row would be enough for guild removal imo. But each guild has different standards they're trying to meet.
    Arraden, Ssdar and Sancus like this.
  5. Aurastrider Augur

    In a dream world where developer time and resources were not an issue would something as follows be realistic for the raid game. Three versions of each raid, easy, medium and hard. Easy version would be tuned for 24-30 players but allow the standard 54. Medium difficulty would be tuned for 36-42 players but allow the standard 54. Hard would be tuned for 54 players. All three modes would drop the exact same gear but it is evolving. To advance from easy to medium you would need to beat all of the easy mode raids. Once in medium level gear would evolve once you beat raids in medium mode. Easy mode alone gear would be evolved 1/3. Completion of all medium mode gear would evolve to 2/3. Completion of all hard mode gear would be fully evolved 3/3. Different raid would evolve different slots to allow for natural gear progression as raids are beaten.

    My thought is even the most casual of raid forces or those that lack numbers could still raid all year long without feeling like they are beating their heads into a wall without any success. They could also be fully raid geared before they move into the next difficulty level which might help pad their stats to help them progress. To throw a bone to the top couple of elite raid guilds that really like a challenge and want to remain engaged make the hard mode actually a challenge at least until summer when less players naturally stop logging in and then maybe consider tuning it down a notch. Just a thought as this would not require raid splitting with smaller raid sizes and it would also work for raids that lack the full 54 man roster.
  6. Morthakia Augur

    I think it is absolutely fair to guild remove someone for ongoing failure to comply with emotes (assuming failure wipes the raid). Do the math:

    54 Players on a raid. For a mid-range guild, you get maybe 5 raid attempts per night, or perhaps 10 raid attempts per week. If every single player failed just 1 emote per month on average (that’s 8 nights of raiding), the guild would be unable to win a single event.

    Or do the math this way: 54 players on a raid. A wipe costs 30 minutes minimum (time leading up to the wipe following by recovery time). That’s 27 man hours of lost time because one person failed an emote causing the raid to wipe.

    Sure, a failure here or there doesn’t seem like much, but it has a very significant impact on lost time (not to mention morale). Someone failing even 2 emotes in a single night is massively above the average and should probably sit out until they figure out how to comply.

    FYI — the above math is why casual guilds get permanently blocked by certain mechanic heavy events.
  7. Allayna Augur

    I beg to differ. When I became guild leader of Machin Shin we were experiencing an obscene amount of turnover, both members and leadership. We were struggling on some farm content like EoK vault. We had many nights of a less than ideal or full roster for raids. We were mocked by other top 5 guilds and publicly criticized as “folding”. We went into RoS beta with 24.....24 applicants! We restructured the guild away from a dictatorship of Stanza to the officership it is today. We moved from 6th in EoK to 4th in RoS to 2nd in TBL. Our team does an amazing job and it shows that they bleed Black Wind.

    You probably won’t hear me...but the #1 reason for our turnover and membership loss at the time was complacency. We tolerated mediocre play and those exceptional players moved on. We no longer tolerate repeated emote failure. We analyze cast counts not just for a quantity but a quality of what is being cast. Look inward before blaming the server or DBG or aliens...
    Arraden likes this.
  8. Ghubuk Augur

    I actually really like this idea. This allows for raids to not be quite so difficult and opens them up to a larger number of guilds while still allowing higher tier guilds to strive for something.
    I would think this idea would also be easier from a development standpoint to be able to cater to a wider range of guilds.
  9. Jhenna_BB Proudly Prestigious Pointed Purveyor of Pincusions

    There's some great points of view on the health of the game in this thread, it's even reasonably civil for ForumQuest. /golfclap

    One measuring stick I don't see mentioned in it is the death of the Bazaar. Even on Bristlebane, the bazaar is pretty lame at the moment. We have 3 raiding guilds that raid current content, a week end raiding guild that is an expac or two behind and a few family type guilds that are pretty active. Bristlebane is different than other servers, people actually play the game here. The bazaar is every bit as dead as other servers, maybe slightly less so.

    Any of us that place any effort at all to trading on Bristle know the usual suspects: the ones that have high amounts of high cap turn product that are used to get to 300 or level trophies, in particular. So many of those traders are gone after YEARS of consistently being logged in offline mode night after night. Items that fly off the shelves are not moving. In many cases, I have become the only trader that has this product. It still doesn't move. I don't even have to mark up this product anymore so that resellers buy it from me. I sell it at a price I think is ideal for me and the player buying convenience from me - in many cases one-quarter of the offered price a year ago. No item movement.

    Making trade skilled items in TBL require a no drop item from a named has horribad for those that sell in the bazaar. None of it is even worth posting. Some of what is going on also has to do with the people that are going to grind for an Artisan's Prize and 350 to all trades have done that. I get it. The AP is still that thing people will at least casually work on when they have nothing better to do. What people should find particularly troubling about this is, until GMM came out, casuals couldn't hunt current content. The bazaar was dead before GMM and is still dead after. People are not subscribing to the game. People are likely also not buying TBL - which means when GMM came out (I'm assuming TBL is needed for GMM as it is being lumped in with TBL, now, content wise). It's likely casuals are still holding their noses up at purchasing TBL.

    I think the Devs really need to listen. The health of their game is heading toward life support. Raiders are keeping the game on and there are not a lot of us left - we are so small a part of the player base of this game. TBL is goign to end up being a guild killer. I'm not just talking 5 guilds having Mearatas down and it's May 8, already. TBL and GMM raids absolutely BLOW!! Don't get me wrong, I like a little challenge. If every expac was TBM, challenge wise, I'd likely not have stuck with raiding. Do we really need to split up our raids every event? Do we really need so many 20 minute marathon raids? Devs, your vision of what raids at this time should be needs adjustments - big ones. How long do we all wager TLP continues to carry EQ? When does the magic run out? I don't believe TLP is something to stake the entire future of the game on. I feel like DBG is doing just that and I predict it backfiring in the long run.

    EQ needs a new direction, a drastic one or the game will sunset a lot sooner than we all think. The next year will be really telling. Were lifetime subscriptions in December just a cash out now plan or a means of being able to hire new employees to better the game? I think we'll all have a pretty good idea when the next expansion launches sometime the first week of December 2019.
    Metanis and Yinla like this.
  10. Kamor Lorekeeper

    I raid in two guilds on FV, and I've only seen this happen twice, to people who were clearly ducking over the raid.

    If someone in casual guild A failed 20 emotes in a night, I would expect them to be talked to about it. Don't ruin 40-53 peoples night because you are watching netflix during a raid.

    Raid guilds thrive under good leadership. Raid guilds die under poor leadership. Nothing recruits better than beating content. All the casual guilds flailing about should really take a look at who they have leading their raids, who they have recruiting, and how they distribute loot. Internal drama from poor leaders, Eeyore morale, and lack of wins/recruits can all be fixed by honestly recognizing shortcomings in the roster in leadership, class makeup, and skill level of the raid crew.

    TBL Tier 1 is 100% beatable w/ ~40 players w/ mostly TBL group gear, and minimal AA's. Reducing the raid size to sub 40's, and making the content easier isn't a long term fix for the guilds currently failing.
    Allayna likes this.
  11. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    We currently have not yet finished flagging for T3, we have 27 flagged and should be making our first attempt at T3 next week or the week after. We have a roster of 88 active members, but when you merge 2 guilds you get a larger bench than you would like. But it was a case of merge or both guilds died. IF we stopped members from raiding with us they wouldn't be raiding as there is no where else for them to go now as AB is now down to 2 guilds beating current content.

    We have no problem with not being in the top 10, we were 15th guild serverwide to beat generals, 1 up from ROS completion, but we haven't pushed to complete the expansion we have had time off for both Christmas, New Year and Easter. We are having fun.

    Having been there I just hope there is something they can do for the other mid tier guilds who are struggling.
    Arraden likes this.
  12. Annastasya Augur

    Simply- the first 2-3 zones of an expansion, and the first 2-3 raids should be accessible to casual players and casual raiders. They don't have to be "gimme" raids, or simple, but they should be somewhat forgiving of mistakes, and non optimal class makeups.

    TBL is a poor example going forward. Balance events scale very poorly, and the locked out zones/progression of group play in TBL is basically backwards.
  13. BadPallyGuildLeader Augur

    Yeah but...the reality is that toxic personalities make their way onto loot councils or are able to make their leadership friends do their illicit bidding because they have high attendance and happen to be competent class leaders or players in general.

    I recall an example like this back in ancient times on Vazaelle. There was this monk who was absolutely brilliant at playing his class and leading raids but spontaneously would act out in an antisocial manner against guild members away from raids, other group mates during non-raid situations, or just a random person he liked or wanted to grief. He continued to find a place as a raid leader in a number of guilds and led raids, etc, but never found the pariah status he so deserved because he produced "wins" and "loot" in raids.
  14. smash Augur

    Sure you have a lot of members, but I guess both guilds had less than enough players, and some of them might not have been up to the best quality. So that leaves potentially around 10 members, you might be better without, because when in raid they deduct from the overall force instead of adding to it.

    Unless they not in raid, or not so often. And just an important question, would they have been accepted, if they had send an application in today, if no then you have a problem, because then they below your normal quality criteria.
    Arraden likes this.
  15. bigpapa Augur

    and WHY they can't do that? tier one easy raids , tier 2 medium and tier 3 to be much harder .
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    well said.,,, I don't know why it seem to be that hard to understand for some?
  16. Raptour_MT Elder

    Raids should offer a 36 and 54 man option with a shared lockout/loot lockout to avoid split raiding.
  17. Mintalie Augur

    Could you elaborate? I'm admittedly new to Bristlebane (4-ish months) and was retired for three years prior to that, so I cannot attest to the traders you've seen disappear. But are you suggesting that you can't make money selling things in the bazaar? I find that hard to believe. I've made an absolute killing as a trader but still can't afford to buy all the shinies that I want.

    Is it possible that people are just overpricing things?
  18. Ruven_BB Augur

    In response to my post on page one, group content should be tuned to group gear to a median level of aa.

    Raiders fully geared should in most instances crush group content, which allows them to focus on raiding.

    Tier one raids should be designed to be more forgiving (ie remove dps checks, single player mechanics that can affect the entire raid, etc).

    Do not change raid sizes, the game has continued to be on of the best raiding games created. EQ tried to lower raids below 54 with little success.

    I really think analysis of what was successful in the past and what wasn’t would highly contribute to better outcomes in the future versus reinventing wheels that had limited success.

    Ruven
  19. Tappin Augur

    Please provide your countless example and make sure to clarify define what you mean by well geared and sufficient AA.

    Being a part of casual guild on multiple servers, being consistent with AA/Gear is a huge problem, especially with raid alliances.

    Strategy and mediocre players (and just about anything else) can be addressed assuming you have consistently well AA/Geared players (mitigation, stats, and dps). If you fail, it just about fine tune things and trying again.

    TBL raids were designed for players that mostly completed RoS raids. Most casual guilds can’t claim this, and that’s the problem.

    The only way for this problem to go away is to provide a few more tbl raids that are not as harsh.
  20. Kurage_of_Luclin Augur

    If people are asking for the T1 raids to be easy, then the Devs would have to create different tiers of gear based on the difficulty of raid. If that happens then Devs have to create an evolving raid gear that gets significantly better with flag completions, or entirely different gear to create reward vs effort. Currently the same visible gear drops in TBL T1, T2, and T3. So, either Dev's need to work on creating more gear, or find a way for gear that drops in T1 to get drastically better as guilds progress through an expansion. Maybe they could make a basic gear that gets more Aug slots per tier flagged. I have been in every type of guild, from casual to multi-boxed raids, to mid tier raid guilds, to high end raid guilds.

    And the big question I have to ask is : Who wants to play a game where anyone can have the best of the best gear, if they just buy enough Krono, or can raid gear up fully with 20 people in raids? There would be no reason to try as everyone would be given the best gear for minimal effort. So, where is the reward vs effort? Everyone will be rewarded for minimal effort.

    Raids need to be hard to make people maximize the performance of their class. Why should a raid reward be incredible if the raid can succeed with people who are semi afk, watching TV, ninja afk , boxing 5 toons or just hitting auto attack and not paying attention? Should the reward be the same?