Charm + Gate needs to go away

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Dilf, May 3, 2019.

  1. phaeril Augur

    What I'm getting at is that it won't stop it at all and at a certain point everyone just needs to learn to counter it instead of asking for nerfs to mechanics that have been unchanged in over a decade.
  2. Aneuren Tempered Steel

    Which would have been fine had Daybreak not then changed their PNP and rules of engagement, or if the game had as much in-game presence as it once did.

    It's almost like Daybreak needs to make (gasp) changes to supplement the changes that it made.

    Of course, group instances of the most sought-after camps would go a great distance towards making this a non-issue, without nerfing a single class.
  3. Hadesborne Augur

    What?? You need to understand this point: This is and has always been an abuse of a bug. Understand that pets used to not warp to their owners...ever. They changed this because pets were getting stuck in pathing loops and it was a nightmare to move through a dungeon with a pet. This change WAS NOT put in place in order to allow chanters to charm mobs and gate them away. This is an adverse effect of the change, also known as "Abuse of game mechanics, other than intended" which has ALWAYS been a bannable offense. They just chose NOT to enforce it as it wasn't that big of an issue at the time. This is no longer the case.

    Also, IN NO WAY does making charm break when gate/CoH/res etc completes, suddenly nerf enchanters intended playstyle. Charm gating is NOT what enchanters did in classic, because charmed pets never warped to them, understand?

    Now to fix the Bard speed running away crap. Well you could just double down on the fix and make it so charmed mobs never warp to their owners. I don't know if there is a way to distinguish between a charmed mob and a permanent pet, but I am sure there is something that can be done.

    OR we could just go through all named mobs and set their flag to be immuned to charm/mem-blur. There is precidence for this as they flagged all named mobs in Howling Stones to be uncharmeable when necros were using them to destroy the entire zone.

    Keep in mind, this would remove the ability for ALL charm classes not just the enchanters to abuse this bug. That sounds ... fair.

    There is your correct logical reasoning with related suggestions.
    Amoxan likes this.
  4. phaeril Augur

    The change to make pets not automatically aggro everything in their path and the summon companion line were the fixes to pet pathing...Classic also didn't let you zone with regular pets, might as well bring that back. No more sneaking into anywhere to dire charm a mob to pop it out. Should probably fix the way sitting down lets you just snag mobs if you have any aggro too.

    Pets don't have to warp for the average person that can't be bothered to cast dispell to lose it, most mobs of any value already run nice and quick. Although making pets break on gate just sounds like a way to make bards gods and speed up the process of leaving charm pets on people.

    I'm willing to grant that it could be considered abuse of a bug and they might change things, seems stupid to say that when everyone noticed right away that you could do it (and even earlier with other means) without it being addressed then. A better example is when they fixed z-axis taunt, which had a massive impact.

    Maybe I'm just mildly annoyed at the notion that this is even a problem, dispell exists and works great. Furthermore, it lets me snipe mobs from afk botters and the last thing TLPs need are more and more clumps of necros just afk botting it up everywhere because there isn't anything to counter it. Getting punked by a charm gate means someone was either super dedicated, or your asleep at the wheel. There are at least a dozen more obnoxious things than charm, I stand by my claim that people need to learn to use dispell when somewhere that people like to charm gate.
  5. Hadesborne Augur

    OK, So a few things. You use the words "snipe" and "punk" which by nature show that you have nefarious intentions when you charm gate a named. Your statement also shows that you are totally biased and are almost incapable of seeing the reality. Also, your logic is faulty. Just because there are botters out there, should this empower you to abuse bugs as well? They didnt enforce charm gating because it really was a small thing that a few cheesy chanters employed. Now, that tactic is being abused by a much greater number of enchanters and it isn't to teach some botter a lesson. They use it now to just take what they want from ALL players. Now enchanters are alone in this. Bards are abusing this mechanic in SK by charming quillmane and running him off to get him to warp to them after a certain distant. You have no chance of landing your dispell in that situation. Claiming that the avergae person should always have dispell up is ridiculous. What if it is a warrior soloing a named? Requiring others to be ready with defenses JUST IN CASE a person will abuse a bug is insanity. Remember, this will not affect the correct gameplay of all charming players. Oh and so you know I played a necro forever, so I understand the charming power and how it can be abused. Abusing bugs with charm is a sure fire way to get charmed mobs nerfed into oblivion completely. Think about how they treated Howling Stones.
  6. LittleBrumski Augur


    For the most part, I am against mechanics changes as well, but this mechanic is almost exclusively exploited in a way that negatively impacts other players. "Because that's the way its always been" is a pretty weak argument for that one, plus the changes that have been made in game for other reasons that ended up compounding todays charm abuse.


    Lets leave it alone so you can abuse ...err fight the fight against botters!!! Go team!!
  7. Risiko Augur

    1. Do not remove game mechanics because of bad people.
    2. Do remove bad people that exploit game mechanics.
  8. Amoxan New Member

    so agree with this post.
  9. Amoxan New Member

    this one :)
  10. Elemenopi Augur

    If we are going to lobby for not changing mechanics that have not been changed for over a decade, we should also lobby for keeping rules in place which have also not changed in over a decade. We're finding a significant overlap in folks who are perfectly fine with the rule change, but then lobby hard against any game mechanic change in order to minimize negative effects of rule changes. I'm betting if we could accurately parse the overlap in folks who KS with reckless abandon now that the rule is gone, thered be a significant overlap there too.
  11. phaeril Augur

    That's all true and reasonable, I'm definitely biased as I've been using it charm to pull for a really really really long time. Long enough that I remember dropping down invis under vox, charming and guarding a bear, waiting for our puller to move vox, running out and using summon companion after dropping down from the back exit from her lair since pets wouldn't drop down. Later on it was super great when we realized we could CotH and summon companion, as long as you had a clean charm without aggro. When camping burgurgle crowns, I him and place holders out to my group even when nobody is around because underwater camps suck and it's just second nature.

    Really I'm more on board with expanding the mobs that can't be charmed than fiddling with how pets (or npcs in general) path (or in this case, don't path) or just making it break on some sort of non-evac location change. It's the kind of thing that can be done on a case by case basis, would have to be anyway since charm for quest turn ins on some things marked as rare mobs is a thing that occasionally has to be done. Breaking a mechanic that has a bunch of legitimate uses and isn't actually the problem or changing pathing (historically one of the most brittle aspects of the game) feels like fishing with dynamite.

    As to the wording of my post, you're probably more right than wrong. I can't think of any case recently where I've charmed a named from someone, but I definitely don't feel any remorse charming hill giants before the necro pets come rolling down the hill to the sound of Side of the Valkyries. I also don't feel bad charming Quillmane after working the cycle for a half hour, I can't even imagine why I should feel bad about doing the work, lucking out that it spawned in track range, and that it's also not at one of the mages sitting on one of the spawn points.

    I definitely feel like I got punked if some enchanter just runs up and charms something I'm fighting and manages to escape with it. That might be because I'm a bard that can move and cast, and keep mage summoned dispeller sticks on me alot of the time. I feel like that because it means I messed up instead of dispelling and securing my kill like I do the majority of the time.
  12. LittleBrumski Augur

    What negative affect is there to make charm break on gate...to people that don't abuse it to fudge encounter mechanics or KS others?

    Really, some of you could post a better counterpoint than "That's the way it's always been." Even though that isn't true.
  13. Purelogic Lorekeeper

    Way to many people box or want a charm class in group for dps and its pretty much not a group if someone doesn't have a charm pet and melee classes get benched unless you're a tank or puller and not to mention charm pets on raids are OP as hell yet nothing is fixed or balanced with that, so what makes you think they're going to fix charm + gating or bard running off with a charmed named. Unfortunately these topics have been brought up before and nothing has come of it.
  14. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

    [IMG]

    Viva le Mehico!
  15. Machentoo Augur


    Not with the long cast time. The mage summoned instant cast dispell staff is though.
  16. Xanathol Augur

    Ah I thought the stones were instant cast too. Haven't looked at them in a while.
  17. Machentoo Augur


    They used to be, they got nerfed back in 2002 or so.
  18. Hadesborne Augur

    Some people think that I am advocating for the nerfing of the charm mechanic. I am not. Charming is a core playstyle for those classes that can use it. BUT!!! Warping a charmed mob to you is an abuse of pathing. If you want to charm something and beat stuff down till you are blue in the face, go for it. Binding yourself elswhere in the zone and then gating to that point specifically to warp the mobs to you clearly demonstrates INTENT to abuse game mechanics for uses other than intended. This is CLEAR and indesputable. Whether they have decided in the past to enforce or not it is meaningless. It has become a rather large issue and needs fixing.

    Like I said, there are a few ways to fix this issue:

    1: Make it so named mobs cannot be charmed. (This fixes a mutlitude of sins, and is probably the easiest and most comprehensive of the fixes. I am sure not many would care of a chanter showed up and charm gated a random non-named mob away. The issue lies in the loot dropping mobs and the intent to get the loot of that mob through nefarious unintended means.)

    2: Make it so Charmed mobs never warp to their masters. (This would require the charmed mob to run all the way to where said Chanter/Necro/Druid/Bard etc gated or was CoH'd. This allows players to follow the charmed mob and attempt to dispell the charm fairly. It would affect some players that are moving through dungeons with charmed mobs and they encounter pathing issues.)

    3: Make it so Charm drops immediatly when the player is shown to be moving at faster than bard speed travel. This would include Gate, CoH, Illegal Warping, or Being Res'd. (This unfortunately would not address the issue with charm and then bard speed/mount running away and having the mob warp to the charmer seconds later. But it would cover a majority of the sins. Outdoor zones would still be ripe with abusers. So AC and Quillmane would still be getting bug abusers gallore "sniping" named.)
  19. code-zero Augur

    Let me get something straight about this situation. We have a group that is killing PH's for named. Named pops and very shortly thereafter an enchanter appears, charms the named, and gates away to a location where no one seems to be able to find them.

    Is this a correct assessment?

    If so is this enchanter also doing the same to other named mobs in the same zone?

    Is the enchanter also doing this in other zones? I don't really expect anyone to know this since any normal player using normal in game abilities can't be jumping from zone to zone checking spawns.

    My point is that what's happening may have very little at all to do with charming and gating and more to do with people using hax to grab multiple named in multiple areas. If an enchanter is only interested in that one named in that one zone they have no need to be jumping around the zone like that.
  20. Xyroff-cazic. Director of Sarcasm

    I don't think you actually play on TLP servers, right? You just enjoy responding to all posts for some reason? Since ancient cyclops in Ocean of Tears was used as a prominent example of this behavior, I'll explain it for you using that as the example. When AC spawns, especially during prime hours, you'll immediately have a handful of people see it pop on their tracking or "tracking" and beeline for it.

    So if our enchanter hero is only interested in killing the AC, he might be a crafty little bugger and bind himself on some obscure, far away island. Maybe next to those oh so alluring sirens or something. Then he'll hang out on the seafury isle and keep an eye on "tracking." When he runs up on the AC, even if there's a group that has it down under 50% already, he charms it, and gates away. If that other group isn't quick to dispel the charm, our enchanter hero now has his own private island featuring sexy siren concubines and an AC to kill all by himself to impress them.

    So now hopefully you can see why our enchanter hero might have interest in jumping around the zone even when only interested in one named. It's not so much that they appear suddenly, but their quick disappearing act along with their target. They don't even have to be super quick to the initial spawn. They can arrive well after someone else has engaged and still execute a pretty quick steal.