Why does it seem that damage/delay ratios are getting insanely high compared to previous expansions?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by EternalNewb, Apr 29, 2019.

  1. EternalNewb Journeyman

    I am a very casual player, and I have noticed some of the high end TBL weapons have extremely high base damages on them.
    Take Shadow Knight for example,
    TBL: Ascending Sun Great Sword
    Damage:667 Delay 37 Damage/Delay Ratio: 18.02
    Scale: Mercy
    Damage:567 Delay 37 Damage/Delay Ratio: 15.02
    Empires: Chopper
    Damage:494 Delay 37 Damage/Delay Ratio: 13.7
    TBM: Serrated Flamberge of Hatred
    Damage:494 Delay 37 Damage/Delay Ratio: 11.3

    I am just curious if the delays are getting significantly higher because npc's are getting insane hp totals? Has magic damage also increase similarly ?
  2. svann Augur

    TBM->EOK no level increase +20% ratio
    EOK->ROS level increase +10% ratio
    ROS->TBL no level increase +20% ratio

    Even 20% gain I wouldnt call it insane. Seems like thats just the intended inflation.
  3. Kurage_of_Luclin Augur

    You do realize that they nerfed damage bonuses on faster weapons. efreeti standard used to be very awesome, until they nerfed weapons, so likely they are now trying to create a balance with classes by increasing melee weapon base damage.
  4. Tucoh Augur

    "The most powerful force in the universe is compound interest" - Albert Einstein (but probably not)
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  5. Morthakia Augur

    It is so much easier to balance the game by increasing damage rather than modifying delay. At this point it is a very formulaic approach, which is fine by me. While I would love options (such as a super high damage but really long delay weapon to use for tanking older content with ripostes), that just isn’t the best use of Dev time at the moment.

    Also, as mentioned above, the degree to which gear is enhanced really depends on whether or not levels are increased. When there is no level increase in an expansion, it is super nice to see significant gear inflation because it helps make older content more accessible in the same way that levels would. Such gear inflation is not as necessary when there is also a level increase.

    Gear inflation really helps open up content to smaller or weaker guilds that are still working through EoK and RoS raids.
  6. Sancus Augur

    I don't think the gear inflation in TBL has really helped these guilds progress. Weaker guilds only realize the benefits from gear inflation if A) group gear is better than the gear they have access to or B) there are raids that drop new gear that are easier than the ones they can't beat.

    In TBL the group gear is not better than RoS raid gear, although it is better than Phlogiston in some slots and better than EoK raid gear (ignoring focus effects). Guilds that have access to some amount of RoS gear, which I imagine includes weaker guilds (RoS T1, or at least Goro/OT, are done fairly frequently), aren't going to benefit too much from the TBL group gear, especially given many slots can't be swapped out due to foci and such. It will give a benefit to guilds mostly in EoK gear, but it also obsoletes the gear they're getting from the raids they can now beat. It can help gear up new players, but in general there aren't enough increases to be had to significantly impact a guild's success.

    The raid gear in TBL is a large increase, but it's relatively harder to break into T1 than it has been in previous expansions. Fire is fairly easy, but it's relatively harder than Gorowyn, Droga, Vim and Vigor (or Hate/Fear), etc. There are very few guilds breaking into TBL T1 that haven't already broken into T3 RoS (3 that I saw on EGL). If you can get those raids down and funnel the muhbises properly for important upgrades, you probably can increase your chances of success somewhat in older content. That said, the scaling from increased stats for most classes is still a lot lower than scaling that comes from new AA/levels.

    I don't think gear inflation is necessarily a bad thing for weaker guilds unless it obsoletes the content they're doing, but I think of the ways to increase player power (gear, spells, and AA) it's the worst option for helping out lower tier guilds.
    Brohg likes this.
  7. Tucoh Augur

    Best thing for helping up-and-coming raid forces stay cohesive is easy raids that give loot substantially better than group loot.

    Even as a non-raider it'd be my preference that the first few raids in an expansion are easy enough that core of ~2 groups and 30 more warm bodies in group gear can beat it and the raids get progressively difficult until the last raid which is a huge win like the Mearatas raid in TBL is.

    Raid balance isn't easy though, especially for a game like EQ, and tweaking damage/hp values after the content is out is always a drama-fest. I still think it'd be funny to take whatever devs think is reasonable for mob HP/damage on the final raid, double it, and then reduce it by 5 or 10% every week and whenever the first guild beats it just lock those numbers in. Sure, it'd suck for everyone who actually tries the content, but think how funny it'd be for people like me.
    Boze likes this.
  8. Morthakia Augur

    So I appreciate the thoughtful comments but my personal experiences have been different. The guild that I periodically raid with is just now breaking into RoS content. This would absolutely not be possible without the significant increase in gear that came with TBL, including the big step up in Type 5 augs, Evolving Chase Loot, etc. While the RoS raid loot is very similar to TBL group gear, the focus effects ultimately make it a big step up, including Phlogiston. On top of that, now that we are able to successfully raid RoS, thanks to TBL gear, we have access to Rank III spells. The formula is pretty universal, Rank III spells are an ~5% increase from Rank II spells on base damage/healing. Getting these spells for the raid force makes a big difference in the grand scheme of “upgrades” in EQ.
  9. Sancus Augur

    That makes sense to me, I could see how the TBL gear could help with transitioning from EoK to RoS. But I think that also speaks to the various aspects of RoS T1 raids that make them more helpful to weaker guilds. Rank 3 spells from RoS are of larger benefit because RoS was a level increase expansion, and RoS T1 raids drop a variety of pieces of gear including 6 raid diamonds per chest. That definitely would help a guild finish up EoK or further progress into RoS.

    I was looking at the situation from the perspective of guilds that got through RoS T1 and Crypt Robbers, but aren't strong enough to get down Vault or TBL T1. A number of guilds were stuck on Vault prior to TBL launching, and I don't think anything in TBL really helped them get over that hurdle. In fairness a lot of it has to do with raid design, and I agree with Tucoh that there should be a couple very accessible raids in an expansion's first tier. Vault is mechanically complex and doesn't lend itself to being forced through via power increases. But my experience was also that the initial power gains with TBL were much lower than with previous expansions.

    Part of the issue is a lot of people in mid tier/lower tier guilds don't take advantage of things like evolving items (I don't blame them, they're a lot of work). So while the power gains from those might be 4% DPS (I think that's generous, but for the sake of argument), far fewer of the DPS players in a weaker guild are likely to go out and obtain those items than those in a guild like RoI. In any event, I still think the over-reliance on gear upgrades vs AA/spell upgrades hurt.
    Morthakia likes this.
  10. Morthakia Augur

    Sancus - Completely agree with that assessment. What I usually find with raids such as Vault is that one or two new expansions usually don’t enable average skilled guilds to brute force their way through the mechanics, but with enough gear/level inflation brute forcing can be possible 3-4 expansions out.

    Also — don’t underestimate the desire for some players to raid old raids to see content and get achievement points, even if the loot is not valuable.
    Sancus likes this.
  11. smash Augur

    You focus on weapons and the increase in ratio, but you seem to forget that the focus has also had a huge increase as well.
  12. Sancus Augur

    Going from a TBM raid focus to a TBL TS focus is a ~0.8% sustained DPS increase, and is less for burst. My guess is going from a ratio of 11.3 to 18.02 was a lot more than a 0.8% DPS increase.

    Which is not to say that casters didn't get other things to help balance it out, but increasing focus averages has a really tiny impact on overall DPS.
  13. smash Augur

    Gotta say some are selective in what they chose to focus on, from RoS to TBL raid TS focus the average increase is frm 70->100 going to 70-120, which is average going from 85 -> 95, which is 10%. Think biggest raid focus increase ever.

    I am however also uncertain how you get to ratio 11.3, since if i do: 494/37 = 13.35(TBM) and eok same, and then Ros = 15,32 and TBL = 18.02.
    Which means the increase is less than what you mention from 11.3 -> 18.02, but instead 13.35 -> 18.02.

    13,5% increase from eok->ros, and ros-> tbl =17%. And I am sure if you check earlier expansions increase for weapons, they been much the same.

    Been using the numbers you came with, but am confused about tbm weapons vs eok weapon as they should have same ratio, but you given them 2 completely different ratios. / this using numbers Eternal comes with, and they confuse me.
  14. Sancus Augur

    The number in the OP is wrong. Serrated Flamberge of Hatred is 408 damage / 36 delay. 408 / 36 = 11.3. Ascending Sun Great Sword is 667 / 37 = 18.02. So the increase I mentioned was correct.

    In TBM raid foci were 65% to 100%. TBL Raid TS foci are 70% to 120%. That's going from an 82.5% focus average to a 95% focus average over the same time. The problem is SPA 124 doesn't crit and is generally not very potent, so a 12.5% increase in focus average translates to around a 0.8% increase in overall DPS.

    As such, while casters have made up for the disparity with gains in other areas, comparing caster focus increases to weapon ratio increases in terms of relative size and power makes little sense.
    Beimeith likes this.
  15. smash Augur

    You right about comparing caster focus vs weapon is kind of right. I think in total the increases are following the same pattern of increases in earlier expansions, so doubt there suddenly a certain huge increase for caster but not for melee and other way around. This is like comparing apples with pineapples.

    As Svan mentioned in his post, the increase is like in earlier, with 20% increase with no level increase, and 10% when there is. I guess with next level increase you will see the 10% increase there as well, and the 10% you did not get comes from the level increase as well.
  16. Jhenna_BB Proudly Prestigious Pointed Purveyor of Pincusions

    Ratios on knight weapons don't really matter. SK's burn well in like 1 minute fights but that's harm touch, not the ratio on their weapons. They don't do as much as a melee class would do with them. It wouldn't surprise me if Rangers would pocket their bows in favor of a 2hander if it was current knight ratio. But, Rangers don't have access to almost 700 dmg 2handers.

    If you're a caster, I do under stand why the concern at some of the weapon ratios. Even though the percentages are in line with recent tuning, the damage itself in conjunction with high level of a certain Heroic stat is a lot of potential mana-less dps. Casters maybe not receiving certain AA lines or any new AA lines in TBL makes it a lot of work to compete with the most competent melee class. Non-level-up expansions have been a problem for caster gains on the dps totem since ever. Nothing is new, it's just where the completionists jack their stats up to along with casting as much as their blue and yellow mana will take them.