What Daybreak misses regarding the group game

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Corwyhn Lionheart, Apr 10, 2019.

  1. Bamboompow Augur

    This^

    There is plenty to read here but probably the core issue here mainly directed at the upper echelon players. The elitists, the #getguud-ers, the mash more button folks.

    Look. You have the whole game at your disposal. Technically EVERYONE does but its only going to be the upper minority that actually finishes everything while its still "current". Everyone else? Perhaps.... maybe...... get to see that harder content later on...or perhaps never. Of course we are not even taking into consideration the raids the casual group player probably won't ever see.Yes, its a choice. We all buy the same content and pay our subs. Lets face it though; some players get more for their money than others.

    Anyway, please stop getting upset every time the casual players get thrown something half way nice. It doesn't really happen often so you should be fine. Please move on. This isn't some kind of an existential crisis. You all will still get to pwn everything and the rest of us will still continue to suck if we so chose. Maybe some of us will not suck but still be stuck with RL that drastically limits play time. It doesn't matter. DBG does a half way decent job of trying to appeal to as broad a base as they can which includes full time professionals in elite raid guilds or recreational amateurs who play 2 hours a week just to stay in touch. Its a business. They need all the customers they can get.
    Corwyhn Lionheart likes this.
  2. Yendar Augur

    Lol... nobody is upset about getting thrown something nice, go read the GMM thread.. most people are for it.

    This is about having most of he future content similar in difficuly. I am against that. The “get-guiders” don’t have anything else to do. The other people couldn’t finish the current expansion last expansion. They can work on that.. while they improve to be able to work on the current one.

    You can’t create content for people that are not properly geared, or behind on AA’s... that same content because completely trivial once you get the required AA’s and gear.

    If it’s not happening often that’s fine, but completely off topic of the premise of the post which is for it to be the majority of future content.
  3. Scorrpio Augur

    Just chiming in here. 3 subbed accounts, loved EoK, finished progression there. I did get RoS, and it was major turnoff. I mean when friggin trash mobs in friggin starter zone purple line me with friggin INCURABLE dots when I got a frigging druid on the team in full EoK group T2, whose friggin spellbook is LOADED with cures of every possible flavor not to mention the AA. I frankly cold turkey'ed EQ at that point and I did NOT get TBL on any of those accounts after reading I pretty much had zero reason to go there.
    Maybe OP came across a bit too strong, we don't need ALL group stuff faceroll easy, but starter zone/mission of an expac should be smooth sailing. You wanna challenge groups, make that stuff 2-3 zones in, not the friggin T1.
    Heck, Lord of the Rings online has tier system. You can do a mission T1, pretty casual, decent loot. Then you got T2 where mobs are tougher and you got extra mechanics, and loot is better, but T2 has additional challenge objectives, and if you meet those, you get an ectra chest with real good stuff.

    Start of expac should be nice n simple. Put the hard stuff closer to the end.
    Yendar likes this.
  4. Yendar Augur

    Agreed..the starter zone helps you get the gear you need to make the expac more doable. The gear is such big upgrades that’s its impossible to make a zone difficult enough with new gear & easy enough with old gear. It’s tough at the beginning until you start to gear up. Having an easier zone, mission etc bridges that gap. GMM is doing that now because TBL was pretty difficult (although now that mercs have been upgraded &the AEa weakened its not all that difficult.

    I skipped RoS and didn’t do profession until I preordered TBL as I got bored during EoK and took a hiatus. I had some friends help me and completed RoS on all 4 of my toons before TBL launches.. but I too thought it was way more difficult at 105 with eok t2 gear and tbm raid gear than TBL. The biggest problem with TBL was mercs couldn’t stay alive because of the AEs at release. If you avoided a merc healer it was easien imo. It’s definitely easier than RoS at 105 now.
  5. Aelen Augur

    My view on this is a bit middling.

    I raid. I 2-box. I solo. I group in raid gear. I group in group gear. I play with people who are often not as capable as me, as I don't generally require them to match me just to be my friend.

    My favorite model of zone-locking and progression was probably House of Thule. Multiple tiers, only need the hero missions to move on, but the missions themselves were very rewarding so being a requester was a good thing. 2-3 zone tiers opened all at once reducing the linear feel a lot. The missions weren’t terribly hard either. I’m usually ok with no locks, too. I liked VoA and RoF pretty well, interesting missions to run.

    TDS was basically one giant gribble. From a gameplay perspective, I hated that. It had exactly one mission, tacked on after launch, that was not essentially a gribble, and that was Calix in Arx. I completed TDS, but I didn’t want to farm it. The linearity bothered me too, if you helped others it was a perpetual loop-back system.

    TBM had some missions that were a bit better. They used the… I’m gonna call it “Boss Fight” archetype more for missions, all 3 Anashti Fights essentially being one of these. That was more interesting, but I had other problems with TBM that I didn’t have with TDS, and the 24x Gribble repeat for shield flagging wore me down, especially after playing TDS and also helping others flag for Arx. That and having most basic mobs summon, and a lot be level-ranged out of any blue con abilities like charm and fling at the time made the base zones less enjoyable. I quit during this one for a while.

    EoK was better. There aren’t many hero-type missions, but they were fairly interesting ones, and there was some variation to how you could do them. Progression split along two paths and most zones had a lot of group tasks for progression, that beat back against linearity pretty well, and made drag-a-longs better for people who just showed up to come get a flag with you out of order.

    RoS direction was mixed, but a lot of it was more of the same, so that part went ok. This was one step in I think a multi-expansion push towards differentiating mobs more, which started to bug me when more of the mobs did things that I didn’t like, or they disabled means to actually combat what they were doing like making it all pierce DA. This would be continued up to TBL which ended up even worse and needed scalebacks. But mission-wise, they had a similar formula as EoK but had worse tuning and more bugs. Attaching progression to EoK actually didn’t do it any favors, but at least much of it was skippable if you didn’t care about the last zone being locked.

    TBL has significant zone locking, and threatened to have the weirdest “linearity” we’ve ever seen. Irregular, enough that it might be interesting, but we were going to be locked out of Stratos without Trial access at the beginning. That’s why the smoke stone exists. Narrative doesn’t trump gameplay. The trials are good to me, but honestly they make way more sense somewhere else in the progression arc. Like as a roadblock to a raid zone, or just the final group zone or something. And probably with better gear than T1. This expansion has re-used and recycled a different major archetype of mission that I’m gonna call “Mini-boss gauntlet”. I actually like this archetype the best I think, Contract of War being the big example. Basically a gribble for people who like killing named mobs without having to pop them or clear much trash.

    TBL has, for me, two really standout missions in terms of difficulty. Trial of Ash, and Strange Magic. They’re different kinds of difficulty, and Ash is definitely the harder of the two, but they’re both irregular. Ash is a constant aggression model with massive spike damage potential that you may or may not control properly. Strange Magic is a positioning puzzle and/or CC toy tester, that’s a bit slower paced and more thoughtful if you choose to go that route. Strange Magic is at a somewhat appropriate spot in progression though, it’s the second to last mission, and has the Lamp as a reward, which is a really cool toy.

    I think the game has room for Gribble content, but I don’t think it needs to be everything. I do gribble stuff here and there, but I like to pick my limit on it. I personally would like to see the Miniboss Gauntlet recycled more, as I like farming those off and on. We didn’t get Boss Fights like we’ve seen in previous expansions much here, one or two of those probably wouldn’t have gone amiss. Trial Stuff to me makes more sense somewhere further in the progression arc.
    Yendar likes this.
  6. Tappin Augur

    I don’t care for TBL. I don’t like locked zones behind progression, besides one or two that fits with the lore. Gear dropping that’s nearly as good as the previous expansion raid gear is small raid force worse nightmare. Attendance is down and morale is low.

    The best EQ expansion was it’s second - RoK.
  7. Allayna Augur


    I'd like to focus on this mindset.


    A lot has been introduced in the previous 3 expansions (EoK, RoS, and TBL) that I believe are working towards giving something to those "casuals"...

    * Tradeable chase items that equaled current raid drops (EoK)
    * Tradeable chase items that equaled last years raid drops (RoS/TBL)
    * Tradeskill quests that made a BiS earring. (RoS)
    * Group dropped evolving items, if evolved are BiS x 4 slots, that require old content, which definitely includes group/casual players (TBL)
    * Tradeskill based gear sets that rallied (RoS) then beat BiS (TBL)
    * 12 man group mission (RoS) ~ Personally I'd like to see more of these, as the raid players will go in with 6 as a challenge, casuals/groupers will take the full 12.
    * Keying system for end zone that allowed two pathways, chest drops from missions or farming the PHs (RoS)
    * Easier and easier farming of type 5s (EoK > RoS > TBL)
    * More unique gearing system with evolving items and their augmentation choices (TBL)
    * Anniversary content that will be available year round, dropping BiS, nice augmentations, easy content and staggered release (GMM)
    * Tradeskill based augmentation, which allows people to catch up quickly on missing augmentation (RoS > TBL)
    * T2 group armor that rivals last year raid drops minus the focus (TBL)

    With all of those improvements to the game, I believe that DBG does have all parties interests at heart. You'll never please everyone, but I think they are working to close the gap between the group and raid gear and content. I really would like to see the addition of more 12 man content as it offers a challenge to some, shows an ultra tuned down version of the raids to others, and offers a loot pool for casual/groupers.

    There are certainly things that could use improvement if you are talking about returning to the game or new to the game people. Lvl 85 heroic toons could easily be Lvl 100. AA counts are getting astronomical.

    There is one thing that DBG cannot help with and that's ability.

    "Git good"
  8. BadPallyGuildLeader Augur

    I wonder how many boxers(FYI, I don't count ISboxin as real boxin) like myself who equipment and skill wise could really have a good time in TBL simply wont even try because of the anti-boxer slant of the smoke trials??? Stupid riddles that you have XX number of seconds to read or else? Please...that's like a false difficulty placed on game mechanics because of laziness or design or worse, someone listened to an "anti-boxer" and swallowed the blue pill they were selling.
  9. Allayna Augur

    Lot's of people focus on the smoke trials. I've seen our guild cycle through them all and then swap to alts to do it again, and again, and again...

    DBG was kind to not leave the actual "progression locking" in place that was there during beta. You can campfire, you can banner into these "progression locked" zones. You can go do the 1 mission in Relic that gives you the port clicky or be TA'd to it. Once you have it and you've traveled to the zone once, you no longer need the smoke trials to cross zones.
  10. Grove Augur

    EoK is sequential progression. You cannot progress until you get past the requirements of the spiders in the caves in Lceanium, the first zone. For non-raiders, progression stops right here.
  11. Liin Edud (Tunare) Augur

    I have mostly enjoyed TBL as a group exclusive player but I can imagine its probably very tough for someone that hadn't finished ROS by the time TBL came out. Most of my guild are not max AA but they're pretty close.

    Maybe I'm reading between the lines too much but I think most of the grief is coming from the roadblocks caused by missions specifically. I haven't really seen anyone complain that there should be no roadblocks, just that the roadblocks come so early in the expansion. I think a big problem is the order the missions are presented in the expansion.

    Take ROS to start. Fell Foliage was rough for many and if you read the GMM tune up thread there are still people who haven't taken down the deranged cabbage and it drops T1 loot to boot. End of Empire has been the subject of tons of threads and complaints too. This one has no replay-ability as it drops T1 loot and its very difficult as well. Guildies and friends would say they were ready with their progression and blocker and need to do End of Empire and I'd sigh and grit my teeth. The only mission in ROS that anyone would truly want to "farm" would be Balance of Power. I was lucky enough to have friends in the top raid guild on the server who carried me through Fell Foliage and End of Empire the 1st time just so I could request Balance of Power over and over again for my small casual guild. We probably did Balance of Power 50+ times before our entire force was geared up enough to take on the other two missions consistently. Without getting help so we could farm something else I'm not sure when we would have beaten Fell Foliage and End of Empire in order to advance. I know the same gear drops off named in Gorowyn and Howling Stones and Sathir but camping named for maybe 2 named in a 6 hour period is a whole lot slower than 3-5 T2 drops in a chest for a 20 minute mission.

    For ROS I think I would have reversed the order of the missions. Obviously you have to make the lore match but as far as progression goes it would be Balance of Power-->Fell Foliage-->End of Empire. I personally think they should all drop T2 gear since I don't think any of the missions should drop lower level gear than what is available in a static unlocked zone.

    TBL is much the same way. I would have done Fight Fire and Brass palace (available with T1 access) both dropping chests with T1 gear. You could farm these over and over, even leave the chase loot dropping in Fight Fire and it would give the raiders some incentive to participate with the casuals or at least offer some task-adds so people could take the rots. Both of these missions and some Merc/Partisan stuff would be required to get to T2. I would have made CoW, and Prince Ralaifin T2, Tyrant, Delivery, Remodeling T3 and then I would have put the Smoke Trials blocking off Mearatas.

    Just a my thoughts.
    Corwyhn Lionheart likes this.
  12. gotwar Gotcharms

    I'm sorry, but this isn't bad design. That riddle was probably one of the most enjoyable parts of TBL for me.

    Absolutely nothing wrong with the developers trying out something different.
    Sancus likes this.
  13. Brohg Augur

    I soloed(moloed) that on Leeni, the necromancer linked in my .sig accurately wearing full Conflagrant, when she was level 108 ~13k AA. Capability is not exclusively gated to type8 augment slots.
    Allayna likes this.
  14. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    I have to say I have been enjoying this conversation and the variety of views.
  15. Lianeb Augur

    IMO experience the smoke trials are by far the best source of TS muhbis’ and sadly people that are trying to gear up avoid them like the plague. There is only 1 of the trials that would be difficult to beat in RoS group gear. Two of them can be moloed by raid geared players, and another one just takes a mage of some range dps in the group to kill the rooted non summoning boss at the top.

    That is 3 out of 5 trials that should be easily beatable by almost any group geared make up.

    It only takes 1 trial to progress through the storyline and once far enough there isn’t even a need to return to smoke, you can then use the portals in stratos and esianti to get to other zones, only excluding people from Empyr and Aalishai, which you would gain access to after acquiring the lamp from the last mission or acquiring another smoke trial lockout.

    I truly do not understand this mindset that “OMG they blocked us from ALL the content” with these hard missions. Don’t do the hard ones and progress.
  16. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    So what you are saying is that there is really no good reason to make finishing the Smoke Trials so hard (for some)? I guess some of us are just used to more linear standard type of progression.
  17. Lianeb Augur

    If your looking for more content
    Quick answer is no there is no reason really to complete them all
    Do the easy ones to progress
  18. feeltheburn Augur

    IDK I box 3 of the trials just fine.
    Yendar likes this.
  19. Yendar Augur

    You continue your progression after you complete 1 trial. When you have a solid group, that has a good shot at the tougher trials you can go back and attempt them. In between those days you can do the partisans and mercs from every other zone. You can then request the missions from those other zones. You can use that time to better gear yourself, AA, and learn to play your toon(s) better. You aren’t blocked because of the trials if you’re able to complete ANY of them (or have someone request an instance that has) if the Smoke trials are really too tough you may have to wait til next expansion to get better gear and AA’s to complete them (just like many groupers are doing with the Cactus mission, End of an empire and the Talendor 12 man mission from RoS. These missions are all DOABLE in group gear with current expansion AA’s but you’re going to have to have a strong group that knows how to maximize their potential and complements each other pretty well.

    This isn’t new though, most players couldn’t complete Fall if Lord Bayle When CoTF was present, enslaver of souls when TBL was present etc the ash trial is much easier than those missions when current.
    feeltheburn likes this.
  20. Morthakia Augur

    ^^^ That’s pretty much how I did TBL. I started by completing a single smoke trial (Trial of Three) and then proceeded right on to Empyr to keep doing progression. By the time the lockout was up, I had completed enough progression to enter Mearatas. Afterwards, I went back and completed all of the trials to ensure I had access to all of the zones.

    The best thing about the Plane of Smoke trials is that you only need to beat one of them and the lockout is every 2.5 days. They are substantially different from each other so you can pick the one that best suits your capabilities. Trial of Three just requires you to beat 3 mini-bosses, great for a team with a couple boxes. Wending Ways is probably the easiest set of encounters — it just requires patience to navigate the super annoying maze. Cyclone requires a fair amount of dps, but very little tanking / healing as you pretty much just need to tank one trash mob at a time.
    Brohg and Yendar like this.