What Daybreak misses regarding the group game

I think you are missing the point from a business perspective which after all that is what this is. Just because I am behind on old progression it does not mean I am not willing to jump into a new expansion and grind out the first couple of zones to get gear upgrades and other power gains that can be obtained to make older progression go faster. By not having a more casual friendly opening zone system that gradually gets more difficult there is zero reason for players like myself to even buy the newest expansion. Less sales means higher odds that the game sunsets its that simple.

TDS was when I started to add more boxes to my crew and develop my team so I purchased 12 copies. My first daughter was born which took me from playing a ton to a more casual player.

When TBM released I bought it on several accounts for the gear upgrades. I could not progress very far into the expansion but I was able to farm enough upgrades for all of my toons. I think I ended up buying around 10 copies of this expansion.

EOK again had great opening zones for more casuals to get gear. Roughly 10 expansion purchases.

ROS missed the mark with OT. After buying it on my five main toons and realizing I was under powered to even get gear upgrades aside from the tradeskill stuff I waited until the sale and ended up buying it on roughly 12 accounts total.

TBL zero preorder purchases and only one purchase to date. After reading about the horrible design and roadblocks to get gear I figured what is the point? If I cant actually get anything out of the expansion why buy it right?

So to recap I have bought over 40 expansion purchases since TDS through ROS and only one copy of TBL all because of poor design. Say what you will about people being behind not needing more casual zones but it does impact the bottom line.

I think you are forgetting how hard the quest NPCs are in Empyr, spawning the quest NPC in Aalishai for the Empyr quest is a pain in the butt.

Estianti being locked behind two T2 zones I think was a mistake, Estianti is the easiest of the T1 zone and yet it is the last one the players can get to.

I finished my progression on my main back in December/January, all missions, quests & conquests are done. I play hard when an expansion is released like many others do, but I don't expect others to do the same. I'm missing 3 named to finish hunter and a couple of collectables which won't drop for me! But we have an idiot on AB at the moment so I'm currently spending my playtime in instances or EoK away from the drama. I am actually playing more now since the release of GMM than I did when TBL was released.

GMM pretty much fills the gap that was missing from TBL, nothing filled this gap in RoS. EoK was reasonable, but again some of the early progression quests were rough (I'm thinking spiders in Lceanium) but apart from the last zone nothing was locked so if you got stuck with progression it didn't leave you high and dry with limited zone(s) to play in.

I don't think anyone wants easy mode for every zone in an expansion but there should be more than 1 zone that doesn't need the perfect group to play in. TBL has been tuned down a lot since it was released in the middle of December, some of it is still a bit rough in my opinion but it is a lot better than it was originally.

In both TBL and ROS I have been disapointed at how easy the end zones have been compared to the early zones, I think the devs should be looking at making the end zones harder and the early zones easier with more tank and spank and less mechanics.

Bearing in mind I have access to all zones and my group is more than capable of doing any content we want to, at the moment we are chosing to do GMM the easiest, maybe its because it is new or maybe its because its fun, easy and relaxing. We have been doing the GMM missions since 16th March every day and are still enjoying, that must say something. Hard missions just don't have the same replay value, if it did players would have been doing the missions from Captain Russel instead of doing Gribbles in Dead Hills.

Comparing how often we do GMM missions to how often we do Chamber of Tears, GMM wins by miles and it has only been in the game for 4 weeks..

Some easier content is a good thing and far from boring.

The raid side of things, have got better this time, the last raids are the hardest! How it should always have been I do feel some of the early raids have too many mechanics, and too much going on. Also I'm sick of balancing everything! There needs to be more variety of mechanics in raids, seems sometimes the devs get an urge to use 1 mechanic and it is then used in almost everything!

PoFire Balance, PoSmoke Balance, Generals Balance, Estianti Balance. It's like walking on a tightrope every raid. LOL

TBL was ALOT harder then. The merc upgrades have been HUGE. The toning down of theAE’s sams thing. Mercs we’re dying on trash mobs when the expansion released. I’m not forgetting how hard that quest is. It’s one of the quests that you might need 3 people. (Although I’ve done it with 2 more recently.

But again, back to the point. Nobody cares if you want to go run through GMM for easy mkde all the time, enjoy. I don’t want future expansions catered around a whole bunch of zones/missions like that like OP is suggesting.

TBL isn’t hard anymore. It’s been softened up dramatically. It doesn’t impact the bottom line at all if it was easier, more people would be quitting. More people quit EQ in the summer when they finish the expac than they do at the beginning of the expac because it’s too difficult. They need to cater around the people that are quitting because they ran out of things to do.

The other people are able to do previous stuff to catch up.

If your problem is the design of TBL that’s a diff story, but even TBL needs more challenge is missions/tasks they’re mostly tedious and boring. Just an FYI on the GMM thread someone is arguing that fight fire (stratos mission) is just as easy as darkness howls. I didn’t really agree, but they have some valid points.

This thread talks about holding EQ developers accountable for creating content that the group player can achieve easily. At what point will EQ players be held accountable for performing simple, basic tasks?

I am a magician, a class that can solo. If I engage in a TBL mob, there is an expectation that I cast spells, do damage, maybe throw in a patch heal, and be aware of roamers and wanderers and avoid or deal with them. That is the minimum baseline. But this thread, and especially the quoted post, feels as if I should hit /pet attack and then watch Netflix.

Furthermore I should be expected to solo with an appropriate pet focus for the content. If I stroll into Mearatas solo with a COTF group pet focus, should I expect to be successful?

The real question is not the developers creating content, but rather what the minimum expected baseline of a player should be. If a grouper cannot run away from their group when their name is splashed across their computer screen and are given six or twelve seconds to do so... is that really an EQ developer fault? Or if a player on a raid cannot avoid a snared Drusella who has a huge visible purple aura and announces to the raid that it is moving towards you... is that really an EQ developer fault?

I am for making content easier when feasible and necessary. However to dumb down content so much because players cannot perform the rudimentary basic tasks necessary, not so much in favor of...

He argued for 1 easy tank’n’spank raid pr expansion, where people that are raid-challenged can have a good experience.

Gotwar argued for 1 FM-like zone pr expansion.

People do not quit over easy content, they quit over non fun content. They play content which is enjoyable over and over and over again.

The summer will always have people taking a break and it is not necessarily anything to do with EQ, there are other things to be done, like BBQs with friends, vacations, walking on the beach, forest etc. Enjoying lovely weather.

TBL has its challenges, getting some of the conquests is a real challenge.

You say TBL need more challenge what would make it more of a challenge for you? Is it the raid mechanics which are making the missions tedious and boring? Do you want mobs hitting harder and AEing more? Larger AEs?

Personally I'd like to see a few more missions designed the way the 14th anniversary missions are, with more than 1 way to complete it. Collect stuff off easy NPCs and hand them in to the Quest NPC to get an item or just kill the Quest NPC who is a lot harder and loot the item from him. I've always liked this consept. Something of a challenge for those who want it, but a way for those who don't mind taking longer and having it easier.

And how often do you redo the "interesting" missions over and over?

Trust me there are many players who would still be doing TBL The point is you would likely be on the forums now regardless of the difficulty levels. You sit here saying you are on the forums now because there is not much for you to do in TBL. Well GMM proves that for a lot of players they still had LOTS TO DO. And as far as TBL goes a lot of it is about making it more accessible.

And having to do trials over and over is not an answer. And let's face it a lot of the other ways to get in are really great for those in raid guilds where there are so many players with access to help get alternate means like lamps.

Although I am not against complexity itself as much as complexity that blocks completion of missions or progression but I do believe no one likes to replay complex missions over and over. Missions where complexity limits success are just used as road blocks. With the limited content I think the group game should put replay value over complexity.

I guess I don't get it. I have finished expansions in the first couple months and still been able to see many others still working on expansions right up till the next one comes . I guess you don't notice that. I also deal with a lot of returning players. People who are no where near max aa or ideally geared. I know its a crazy idea but I would like to keep these people in the game when they come back.

People in raid guilds don’t need lamps or group gear. That’s irrelevant.

Your entire premise of this post is that group content shouldn’t be complex at all (maybe a mission or two at he end of the raid)). That it should be easy, repeatable and basically killing trash mobs and maybe a boss. It’s not that nobody likes to repeat complex missions its that there’s no reason or incentive too. If they had increased loot rewards or exp rewards that were worthwhile they would be done more often.

It’s a good thing if people are working on the expansion right up until the next one. Thats the point. You aren’t supposed to be able to run right through easy content without road blocks.

We could also just overpower mercs, make them mitigate twice as well as tanks, heal twice as much as clerics, and dps twice as much as rogues. We could allow players to use one of each merc at a time and not have mercs take exp.

That would help all the people you’re talking about right? Would that keep them in the game when they come back? Until when? Until they finish the current expansion and AAs etc and get bored. Which would be much faster due to not needing any help.

“Returning players” shouldn’t be fighting in the current expansion so easily. If you’re behind on gear and AA you shouldn’t be able to do TBL with EoK level AA’s. It should be really hard for you. You have plenty of past content to catch up on. Once you catch up on some gear and AAs it won’t be so difficult. We don’t need more content for them. There’s plenty... and the players that care caught up will have a lot less to do. content that’s trivial for “returning players” is how easy for players that care caught up? And how much easier for raiders? They’re supposed to enjoy that?

One point I’ll make on this topic is that they severely missed the boat with any experience camps in TBL. There is not one camp in TBL that even comes remotely close to the AA/hr available in ROS zones. The fact they made xp’ing in TBL a chore vs xp’ing in ROS is a huge mistake, and one that I hope is fixed in expansions to come.

People taking a break or playing less during the summer is not an EQ thing it's people taking vacations, going to more social gatherings, camping, hiking, fishing and all of the other things that 3 months of nice weather promotes.

Having zones that scale in difficulty as the expansion progresses is the most logical option to engage the masses and sell expansions. Making a whole expansion with the limited resources available that will keep hardcore players from completing for nearly a year would probably kill the game. There has to be one or two casual friendly zones otherwise you lose expansion sales from casuals and you prevent them progressing in those expansions when they finally are caught up and ready to progress through the expansion. At this point these players will quit because they can no longer progress in the game.

So basically you said all that and still disagree with the premise of the post. OP is arguing for basically the entire expansion to be “casual friendly” as you put it. I’m not advocating for not having any “casual friendly” zones. 1 or 2 zones is fine. Having GMM is perfectly fine. Catering an expansion entirely around it is what I’m disagreeing with.

People finishing everything and getting bored in three or 4 months shouldn't be dictating the difficulty level of the game though. And when did you get most of your group stuff done?


"It's not that nobody likes to compete complex missions its that there's no reason or incentive too."

So what is the purpose of this content then? You want them to continue making complex missions that you aren't going to repeat for what reason? So you get a bit challenged maybe then don't do the missions anymore? Yeah I guess it makes no sense to make content that will be used over and over above content that will get used a time or two then left alone.

I am looking for primarily repeatable content and you are arguing its better to have more complex stuff you will do a couple times then forget about. *shrugs*

Actually you may not be surprised to hear that I disagree with you a bit. But lets be clear. I am not talking about groups of exclusively returning players being able to complete content. But I am talking about mixed groups of returning players existing players who play with them. People who might not have the bonuses from every savior reward or aren't maxed out in gears or aa themselves.

Even Holly has said Daybreak isn't concentrating on new people as much as getting back old players. An expansion like TBL with the exclusion of GMM would be a big turn off to most returning players in my opinion.

You have to remember that returning players don't have nearly as many grouping opportunities to catch up in older content so that they can join everyone else in the current expansion.

Actually I think I said all of that and mostly agree with the spirit of the post. Having the first two zones more casual friendly usually provides high replay value. It's funny to me when I hear people say hardcore players don't like easy content yet as time passes guess who you see in the more casual friendly areas? Hardcore raiders maxing out alts or friends or grinding for glyphs or just mass killing for the sake of mass killing. I cant tell you how many high end raiders I would see at gribble until the HA nerf. If the masses really wanted the most challenging content only they would have been doing the captain HAs instead. Its human nature to take the path of least resistance and get the highest return on time invested. I am not saying make an easy button but group content should not exclude group players for the sake of the top 1%. The fact that anyone has beaten all of the raids already should be a concern. That is where the best of the best hardcore players should be challenged for a whole year not a couple months. I know making raids of this difficulty presents it's own challenges in terms of raider retention but that's no different than locking group players out of the group game right?

If there aren’t enough returning players to group up to complete prior content, then why do they need more current content? So up to date players can carry them through it? Because the up to date players aren’t good enough to carry them through more difficult content? That literally makes zero sense.

You don’t need all your best gear or all your savior AA’s. You will need to earn some new gear in the latest xpac which is where the big discrepancy in TBL came up. The gear improved so much and it was hard for people that didn’t have it. (They needed the additional HP etc to deal with the AE’s) but the gear is abundant in TBL and T1/t2 armor is generally a rot in most groups. Returning players shouldn’t have any trouble getting a set of TBL gear. A player with T1 gear and ros+ AAs that knows how to play their class properly can easily contribute fully in TBL and won’t have any issues if they group with similar players.

I’m okay with having a zone and a couple missions where returning players can gear up to be able to do current content. I’m not okay with dumbing down the skill level of most current content (as you are suggesting) so that people don’t even need to know how to play their class properly are able to do it because another person is able to make up for their weak contribution. I’d prefer not dealing with or grouping with players that don’t know what they’re doing. This way, they’re forced to learn how to improve& maximize their potential. The other way, they don’t need too, so don’t.

People are “repeating” the missions for achievements, they’re repeated playability while you’re trying and failing. For instance I’ve done ashes trial more times than anything else because I’ve failed it more times than anything else. That’s repeated playability. If it was replaced with another easy trial like three or wending ways I wouldn’t have spent nearly as much time in smoke. I wouldn’t have felt nearly the same accomplishment for completing the trials.

I wouldn’t be oppposed to having more incentive for completing the more complex missions so that people want to farm them over trivial content... whether that’s exp rewards, loot rewards or a combination of the 2.. but regardless, I do fight fire to farm chase loot not because it’s an easy mission. If it didn’t drop chase loot I wouldn’t be replaying the mission ever, let alone multiple times a day. The tougher mission still offers more replay ability because of the failures and attempts. Brass Palace is an easy TBL mission.. but it’s not farmed often because it doesn’t drop T2 loot. People replay over and over whatever mission drops the items they want. People like you are keeping them from giving better rewards/incentives for tougher missions so then there’s no reason to replay them (if the complex missions dropped better loot people would be all over them and ignoring the trivial stuff) You want the best rewards on trivial content. People should be encouraged to try more complex stuff and improve.

Having listened to both perspectives it sounds best to have a spread of challenge - 40% "easy" zones, 40% "moderate zones", 20% "challenging" zones. Something for everyone

We need right greave, left greave. Right sleeve, left sleeve. More ring slots, but differentiated from current ring slots. The idea being, that more equipment slots can strecht out content, so that people need to play more in the same zones and missions to get a full set of new gear, meaning that the given content design brings more played hours for the same effort. All introduced gradually to absorb the extra stats (which are basically just distributed out on more items in this scenario).