What Daybreak misses regarding the group game

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Corwyhn Lionheart, Apr 10, 2019.

  1. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    They run Darkness Howls to get Glyths to do Fight Fire, they don't raid, but they do like a challenge. A mad SK with a whats CC attitude! A lets tank everything at once mode! The challenge is to see how fast we can accomplish each mission. Glyths allow him to tank all NPCs every wave in Fight Fire with only a single merc to heal him. The ring is being illusive! I'm sure it will drop for him eventually but until then that is our routine.

    Once we have the April patch there will be even more reason do to GMM for evolving items. :)
  2. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    Done?
  3. Brohg Augur

    Done. The group mission analogues to raid events are all greatly simplified. Any one you care to name has had several significant complications stripped out.
    Sancus likes this.
  4. Morthakia Augur

    Personally, I would love to see just ONE raid every expansion that is a pure tank + spank. Add AE rampage if you want, or a mild AE that goes out. The intent is to allow a pickup raid to beat it. There are servers out there with no raiding guilds and it would be nice to allow players access to current raid gear, but on a super limited basis. Give it a 6.5 day lockout so it could only be farmed once a week. Over the course of the year, people who attend every raid would have enough currency to buy just 2 items, and so few items would drop that only the most dedicated folks would be at best 50% raid geared by the end of the year.

    This would at least incentivize players to remain subbed throughout the year even if they aren’t a part of a raiding guild. Just enough of a carrot.
  5. Brohg Augur

    It feels super unlikely to me that any gathering of 54 enthusiastic players could not tackle at least one existing entry raid in each expansion.
  6. Sancus Augur

    Level 110 Corrupted Temple of Veeshan plz & ty (especially considering it would fit thematically...)
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  7. Yendar Augur

    Which is fine, I wasn’t advocating to get rid of GMM or even not to have any zones/missions like that. It’s okay to have a zone that you can easily exp
    a la DH gribbles. I’m disagreeing with the premise of the post which is that we need more zones/content/missions like this. The majority of EQ doesn’t need to be like GMM or gribbles & we should cater EQ around it.
  8. Bamboompow Augur

    There always needs to be something that can be accomplished with minimal hassle. The missions and/or zones that people do over and over either are forgiving on class requirements, skill level or just have some basic mechanics where if you want to BS with your group mates while running them is not going to be a deal breaker.

    Most everyone respects that there needs to be challenge if only to give some kind of goal to work towards. The most challenging missions are defining accomplishments where your leveling, class knowledge and gearing efforts are put to the test, thus should never be intended as "routine" for the typical group player. These are the missions that require careful selection of classes, skill levels etc, since the defining milestones tend to take some time to follow the script and leave little margin. In other words, running them might be planned out days or weeks in advance. Yes, raid gear and the higher echelon of achievement indicative of many raid players will trivialize many aspects of group missions to render them more accessible but perhaps that is a luxury that raiders can enjoy in exchange for playing within a more regimented and structured game environment.

    Ultimately, the group game should not have a primary focus on keeping raid players challenged when they are not raiding. The group game should challenge group players in terms of gearing and available spells while still requiring solid knowledge of play. Even then, there still has to be a foil to the ultra challenging missions. Even raiders want quick and easy exp if only for the practical aspect of time management. Again, EVERYONE wants something that they can get into easy, derive some reasonable ROI from time spent and enjoy a certainly level of relaxation.
  9. Yendar Augur

    So instead they should cater around the casual player base & ignore the needs of the hardcore player base?
    You think they want to buy a new expansion just to aimlessly grind out trash mobs every mission? (If you want to kill trash mobs what’s wrong with doing it in the static zone?)

    DB will lose way more revenue in subs (krono) because people are finishing the December expansion in January/Feberuary, maxing their exp, and becoming bored/having nothing to do until the next expansion.why do you think by summer every year less and less people are playing? They don’t have anything to do.

    Right now people are still working towards finishing up TBL because it’s actually difficult for some.

    This is similar to asking for lower level content. There’s just no need. If you’re struggling with the current missions.. work on previous expansion ones until you’re capable. It’s your job to get your player up to speed. That means gear, AA’s and you skill level. You need to be able to do a sufficient amount of dps for your class, tank, or heal etc if you’re able to pull your fare share you’ll be able to complete current missions. If you can’t, you need to look at what’s keeping you back and work on it. If you truly don’t care to work on it then you should be doing older content. That’s not a reason to make easier content... it only makes it trivial for the people that are up to speed. (I’m okay with having GMM to help people get up to speed) I don’t want an expansion full of GMM like content.

    You’ll still need to purchase the new expansion if you want to benefit from the new AA’s, gear, & level increases, so no lost revenue... & those are the things you’ll need to make the expansion that wasn’t doable for you, more easily doable.
  10. Morthakia Augur

    I hate to say it, but you are out of touch with a good portion of EQs player base. I lead pick up raids and you would be shocked at the performance of level 110, max AA players. People don’t know how to get to zones. They don’t listen to instructions on how to zone into the instance. They’ve never seen a guild banner before. The idea of “punting” a mob is foreign to nearly everyone. Lord help us if the raid needs to relocate quickly. Adds get picked up “eventually” and half the people couldn’t comply with seemingly basic mechanics.

    Droga: Don’t cast on the mob (haha, not a prayer!!!)
    Queen: Run away from the raid into the tunnels (someone remind me where the tunnels are?)
    Avoid Drusella Sathir? Don’t Aggro the renegade cacti? You’re dreaming.

    I’ve raided with TONS of people like this, in some cases for many years. No matter how many times you show them where to run, explain the event, and give them GINA triggers, they just...can’t. In some cases they are too old, others don’t play frequently enough, some are looking to blow off steam and don’t want the stress.

    Here is the crazy thing: these people LOVE raids. It’s this incredible novelty. Almost 100% of their EQ time is spent soloing or in small groups that seeing 50 people come together to take on the challenging boss is really, really cool!

    This is why we need a tank+spank raid in every expansion, or another NToV equivalent. Give these poor souls a bone so they at least have a chance at loot rather than being locked out of anything that could be even remotely valuable.
    Jhenna_BB, Elyssanda, Yendar and 2 others like this.
  11. Brohg Augur

    EoK progression is still a real project for many. Let's not lose touch by considering ForumQuesters an actually representative sample of EverQuesters
    Lubianx and Elyssanda like this.
  12. IblisTheMage Augur

    But EQ is growing, and GMM is catering for casuals. Casuals are not net-leaving, and “only” a third of the payerbase is on TLP. I do think “DBG get it”.

    Gotwar’s and Morthakia’s input was probably the most spot on, and actually an apreciation of the need for new content in both ends of the spectrum each expansion.
  13. Yendar Augur

    Y
    Thats exactly how TBL is, every merc is basically a straight kill task. Most partisans are easy, quick, & 2boxable. Maybe 2-3 require 3 people to do with weaker players. And most of the missions aren’t anything fancy. The issue is the smoke trials have blocked it for many, they’ve given up. All you have to do is complete an easy trial every 3 days or so (wending and three can be done with 2-3 group geared players)and continue your progression if you’re struggling there. You should be able to enjoy the entire rest of the expansion. Until you 3 group geaed people is sufficient for all the missions until the last one where you can still do it shorthand’s you just have to zerg it (since it doesn’t rest like a raid mechanic)
  14. Aurastrider Augur

    I think the best design for expansions is having a tier system. Obviously this is difficult with only 6 or so zones since an ideal tier system would have 8+ zones to progress through. So the question is how do the developers create an effective tier system with limited zones? I think something as follows could work as an example using the first zone as the baseline for the expansion.

    Zone 1: Tier 1 difficulty with Tier 1 visible or non visible drops.
    Zone 2: Tier 2 difficulty (15% increase from baseline) with Tier 1 visible or non visible drops.
    Zone 3: Tier 3 difficulty (25% increase from baseline) with Tier 2 visible or non visible drops.
    Zone 4: Tier 3 difficulty (35% increase from baseline) with Tier 2 visible or non visible drops.
    Zone 5: Tier 4 difficulty (45 % increase from baseline) with Tier 3 visible or non visible drops
    Zone 6: Tier 4 difficulty (65% increase from baseline) with Tier 3 visible or non visible drops.

    Obviously the % increases are just examples and could be debated based on baseline mob power vs average player power on expansion release and accounting for player power gains as they progress.

    Tier 1 gear should be tradable and obtainable from the group merchant using expansion currency like TDS. This allows for easier trading of gear to get needed upgrades when an item drops players don't need. It also provides incentive for more people to buy the newest expansion.

    Mission mechanics should be pretty basic for all but the final zone. The expectation would be that the final zone is tuned way up from the start knowing that at some point it will be tuned down. Obviously a better option would be to have a regular and hard version of all of the missions to keep the more hardcore players engaged while also not putting up a roadblock for the more casuals and less skilled players.

    Also no more linear progression to unlock zones. At least keep all but the final zone open from the start. If the final zone is designed to be the hardcore zone casuals who hate linear progression will probably just get curb stomped their anyways so I would be ok with that zone being locked behind a flag or something but locking all of the content that people pay for behind forced progression is poor design imo.
    Corwyhn Lionheart likes this.
  15. Fian Augur

    I think part of the problem is that the TBL expansion has put the hardest missions in the plane of smoke, which is the first part of progression. Most groupers can't complete all the trials, so they can only get to later zones if they happened to have completed one in the past 3-4 days. And chances are, they aren't finding a full 6 man group to run a smoke trial that often. Giving players access to only one zone and locking the rest behind the hardest missions is a really bad design.
    Yendar likes this.
  16. IblisTheMage Augur

    Is there a similarity in progression being rewuired for zone unlocking between TDS and TBL?
  17. Aurastrider Augur


    I am not a fan of the linear progression from TDS but at least there were 3 zones unlocked from the start that for the most part were rather casual friendly. In era there were a couple of missions/tasks that were a pita like bigger fish from TT (although you could bring as many friends as you could round up to help you). Zones like Caverns have zero replay value for me. It is probably my most hated zone but I stuck it out and completed everything there including hunter and collections just so I have zero reason to ever return unless I want to drag a new toon through the progression. I have toons I would love to bring into zones past caverns but that zone is a deal breaker for me so I leave them out. I am currently wrapping up combine with just the final mission left, a couple of named and a couple of shinnies. After I am done with TDS I have to decide if I want to skip TBM which I did not enjoy much from my time there and try to knock out EOK or just bite the bullet and try to get through content I did not particularly enjoy just for the progression rewards.
    IblisTheMage likes this.
  18. Yendar Augur

    Agreed, but there are ways around that.

    First, only one player has to have a lockout, (find a friend that’s done a trial within the last 3-4 days). Wending ways & trial of three are easily done by 3 undergeared players. You don’t need a full 6 man group every 3-4 days. You need a friend or two that wants to gear up, farm mihbis, go for achv, or get thru smoke also.

    Second, after you do the 3 tasks in Empyr and Aalishai (which are about 6 hours total of gameplay at a slow rate 2 boxed) the rest of the expac isn’t blocked by smoke. So you can access Esianti, Mearatas, Stratos, Doomfire Missions, & strange magic (which you probably couldn’t do either) without being blocked by smoke & only having completed 1 trial. Maybe it was a poor design having the smoke trials so early in the expac, but that’s a completely different topic.

    Most of the xpac tasks/missions outside of smoke are pretty vanilla and boring exactly along the lines of what OP wants more of. Personally I’d prefer a lot less tedious tasks. I’d prefer the option to “grind” a static zone for trash mobs exp.. or group up for a challenging mission that has exp & rewards. I don’t want to group up or box a mission basically doing the same thing I could do in a static zone.
  19. Yendar Augur

    And those players have PLENTY of content ahead of them. That’s the point. They don’t NEED more content catered to them. If the newer content is easier (say TBL was easier) then more people would already be finished with it and bored with EQ. I’m on the forums now because there’s not much for me to do in TBL and am getting bored. I definitely don’t want an easier expansion where this would have happened in early January. It’s nice to have some roadblocks to get through.
  20. Yendar Augur

    Exactly why we don’t need more content like this, there is PLENTY for you to do. You’re taking advantage of it.
    Brohg likes this.