fwiw - not saying balance is perfect. It's been a couple years so Knifeplay & some other bits could use being brought current. But good rogues are good.
You did get my eyebrows to raise a little. Now if you had said your pet was doing it, then I could believe it. What TBL mob lasts 500 seconds with you in it? Pungas is a raid geared rogue, but only RoS. I would like to see how he does in the same scenario you described. He still doesn't have all his TBL DPS enhancing AAs yet though. I know you can make this happen, so let's do it! Miss the lesson burns man! Been focusing my AA farming on the ranger so I have a chance to outparse your OP pet. Miss the lesson burns man!
First off don't compare a raid tank to a non raid rogue or a raid rogue to a non raid tank. anyone who says Rogue DPS is on par with a SK then your missing something. as a rogue in full TBL tier 2 still waiting on guild to get there diminished to get TBL crafted. i group with a lot of tanks that are also TBL tier 2 so i know were my DPS is comparably to theirs and mine is about 50% more then theirs. i take it your parser didn't calculate your rogue poison, or your dots from discs. also take note that part of that tanks DPS is also coming from your blackguard synergy as it adds 16k x 3 = 48k damage every 30 seconds.
Here is a shorter fight where a SK used HT, though it only hit for 4.3 Mil. This is a TBL Named. Rogue had just died, so wasn't fully buffed, but there was a bard involved. Glassbeak Stormbreaker in 55s, 55029k @1000520sdps | #1 Rogue + pets 34458k@626.5k sdps (675.7k dps in 51s) [62.62%] | #2 ShadowKnight 18786k@341.6k sdps (341.6k dps in 55s) [34.14%] {DB}
I think rogues are a problem during pop era and below on coirnav. I know i don't have the potime weapons yet or level 65 or max aas yet, but there is certainly a huge amount of low rolls and flat out misses. I could get 5-8 low rolls of 150 dmg, and i am maxed backstab max piercing, and i am using the best luclin weapon from SSRA. With said weapon, i can get the rare rolls above 1800 dmg backstabs, and even rarer at 2000 line. Not only is it difficult to compete, but on top of that, enchanters are completely busted. Enchanters having a charmed pet that backstabs for 800 dmg and up to 1800 dmg is insanity. I can understand monks because they need to hurt, but a enchanter can charm mesmerize, give clarity, etc. Add in to the fact that rogues don't have utility others want for the most part, and their backstabs have multiple conditions: 1:6 seconds cd. 2:It still misses quite a lot with maxed out backstab. 3:You need to have a enemy's back, and when they turn around immediately, it wastes a 6 second cd. With these conditions we should be doing at least at minimum dmg the same dmg of a regular hit of a tank with a 2h. The problem is the rolls are too wide, and leads to a lot of very low rolls. I think rogue can benefit from some changes to make their damage competitive, at the very least in vanilla up to pop era where they become quite good. I also think nerfing enchanters charmed pet is a must, because it encourages to have multiple enc in a group to just wipe out enemies as fast as possible. Let them be competitive, but not outdps a pure dps class.
The sadist thing about this post is all of the classes discussed are beating the dog crap out of the wizard.
Wizards have their own set of issues, but this is the section of melee. Problems related to wizards should go into the caster section. The issues with rogues going back to the subject, is not only having very bad rolls, their poisons as other said taking so long to put on your weapon, and getting the poison to begin with makes their poisons kinda bad until a lot later. The speed of putting poisons on weapons definitely needs to increase, as it takes way too long. Either editing as well the dmg rolls, or giving extra dmg on weapons for backstab modifier on vanilla is also needed, so we actually get more groups. At level 40, we have a aa for vanilla because we are lackluster, and its made worse by the fact we got nerfed and fall further behind, and enchanters are still overperforming. Due to them overperforming, stacking enchanters for pets and mez is favorable to having a rogue. Also i heard poisons are often resisted in raids anyways and it takes far too long to apply, and by the time you have a poison, the enemy is dead. Wizards issues is that they get resisted a lot, it costs a ton of mana to cast, and you have a very long amount of meditating. That spell mana harvest, which wizards get past 30 also has a long cd, and you only get like 15% mana back anyways. I think wizards out damage me still anyways, because at level 40 you can do the ice spell that is a rain spell hits for around 1500 damage, and its a small sliver of mana. At level 62 you get another one that hits for over 1000 damage per rain hit and could critical hit for 2000 probably. If you calculate its possible technically to do 6000 damage and i have heard wizards doing 10.000 damage with a single nuke, but the biggest nukes also have staggering mana costs of 600 or 700 mana, as it should. Then again, rogues are sustain its different. I have no problem with wizards doing a lot of damage, i do however have a problem with enchanters out damaging me, because all that does is encourage people to not have rogues, and their utility is already very limited, and having op classes just means everyone runs to those classes. Its already a thing of stacking multiple enchanters in a group. I don't hate enchanters, but there has to be a better way to balance so that people take classes for certain types of zones. For instance having some enemies weak vs pierce taking double dmg to backstab encouraging rogues or having more locked doors and traps around. Problem i see, is people see traps and locked doors as mostly tedium of waiting for a rogue, so maybe solution is to give us something else to be desired for other than tedious annoying stuff.
Devs balance classes at the highest level, aka on live servers, not on what expansion TLP servers are. So wait for future expansions. I guarantee you rogues DPS destroys enchanters DPS on Live servers.
The problem is that any time yo have a new TLP server come out, you will come across the unbalanced issue. Better to balance it in a way that makes them get strong in a way that doesn't break the game and nerf them at the top if its too strong.
They don't have time to look at each old expansion to see what is class balance in these expansions. Once again, their focus is to look at class balance on the highest level, aka Live servers. And the problem you describe doesn't exist on Live servers.
Unless they balance it, nobody will want rogues, or play them. Proof is low pop of rogues due to imbalance. If you end up with nobody wanting to play a class and if it ends up having a bunch of loot rotting due to rogues being extremely unbalanced early on, it says something. You cannot balance only in the high end, because prog servers depend on classic like content up to newer stuff.
You can go on Live server and play a rogue. You won't have the problem you describe at higher levels.
As a rogue player on phinny right now, I can tell you that MotM is 99% the problem. The instant you walk into GoD and spend a few AA, rogues go from dumpster to suddenly just below the monks. You may even be ahead of the bad monks (don't hold your breath though.) That being said, if you're unhappy about rogue dps just reroll now. Monks are far and above the most dominant dps class until SoD (where we now have mages doubling up on melee damage and wizzies close on their heels.) Rogues are an always the bridesmaid, never the bride kind of class in general - from GoD/OOW forward you will always be nipping at the heels of a good monk and you may win a few parses if the fight favors you or if the monks die/are busy/are bad. I don't really know when it is that monks start to fall off, but it is years in your future.Tangentially related, zerkers probably stop being threat capped and can actually do dps around that time.
Please don't speak like the situation you are knowing will remain the same for all expansions past GoD /OOW. Phinigel is on SoD / Underfoot ? In current modern live content, rogues have np to be very competitive in DPS parses. So would be nice people stop spreading false information like the situation they are facing in the current expansion the TLP players are will remain the same forever. Catch live content, do parses again, and then you have a reason to complain about DPS balance. But complaining based on outdated expansion content is lame. There is also the possibility that you have non rogues classes more talented than your rogues in your guild. The number of buttons to push is increasing the more and more you are getting closer to recent expansions, and if you are missing some stuff you will not perform right as you should be.
I apologize for having not explicitly stated it, I made the assumption that someone would read between the lines and realize that what I said only applies to expansions that have unlocked on phinny. I'm not calling for buffs or nerfs since daybreak clearly has only the minimum care for any expansion between PoP and Live, just telling the guy how it is. It was actually meant to be a positive, in a way - rogues go from never being able to touch a monk and barely justify their raid slot pre-pop to a very solid dps that can consistently compete for top parse slots (until SoD...) and I'll choose to ignore hearsay of zerkers doubling up on anyone else's dps during later expansions since I haven't personally experienced it.
Yeah and it's not true anymore. I think it was 2 expansions ago that zerkers were doing like 2 x the DPS of other DPS classes during EoK, but it's not the case anymore.
