Rogues need buffs

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Shakara, Sep 19, 2018.

  1. Shakara Augur

    Rogues on TLPs have been very underwhelming especially since the melee nerf. I have herd rumors Rogues get better but from Classic-PoP they really struggle to bring something unique to raids. I feel if their poisons were buffed they could have some interesting utility that would be the class in a more interesting spot.
    a_librarian likes this.
  2. Fhiele Augur

    Live rogues do ok with their insane(and virtually free) poisons. Those come pretty late in expansions though. PoR maybe?
  3. Bobbybick Only Banned Twice

    Rogues are in a good place once you get to TBS, problem is you are stuck in an era where they are outperformed by most other dps classes (assuming this is an Agnarr post).
    Machentoo likes this.
  4. HoodenShuklak Augur

    Its probably moreso that simply monks and rangers need some tweaking.
  5. snailish Augur

    Kind of need to get everyone in balance for whatever the "desired difficulty" of the early eras is going to be. Right now stuff is pretty trivial...

    Then rogues likely need to be adjusted up in a precise way.
  6. Machentoo Augur


    It's an impossible task. A constantly moving target, with live changes constantly impacting class balance in unpredictable ways. Add to that that it isn't just the early eras that need to be balanced, because most servers don't stop there.

    Flavor of the month classes have been a thing for as long as the game has been around. And even as you make your way through progression in its current state, relative class power changes a fair amount over time. It would be whackamole to try to "adjust up in a precise way" every time a class is lagging a bit--especially when the same class does just fine or even tops parses in other expansions currently.

    All that said, necros need to be fixed.
    Ryak and snailish like this.
  7. malaki Augur

    Could be worse. You could be a Wizard or something from 65-75.
    Beimeith likes this.
  8. Kobra Augur


    Wrong, necros aren't broken. Player expectations are.

    If you roll a necro expecting to do well at burst damage and short duration fights as well as sustained then the problem isn't necro, its you.

    I remember as I went from lower tier guilds to higher tier guilds my performance started to seem relatively worse. Its just due to the nature of the game. Higher end guilds back then had higher dps and thus necros did not perform as well because fights did not last as long.

    The current status of the game just ensures every guild has high dps because everyone knows how to play better and most guilds back then did not have optimal class distribution like now. This is what makes necros seem bad. If every fight is a short burst fight then there is not gonna be a time when a necro shines.

    If you roll a necro, then you should realize that. If you can top parse on every short fight as well as longer fights, then what is the downside of playing a necro? There would be no downside.

    Different classes have different niches. I say this as a necro main from the day the servers came up to now. There are fights I am gonna mop the floor and be the hero and there are fights I am gonna look like why did I even show up.

    If you enjoy the necro playstyle then play a necro, but you need to adjust your expectations and deal with it. Don't cry and ruin the class because you don't understand the way the game works.

    Change the encounters to be more difficult. Then when the other classes run out of gas, necro will do better. No need to fix what isn't broken.
  9. a_librarian Augur

    Rogues have a cool factor that I never felt with monk or ranger, it might be that they're a lesser played class so they stand out more when you see them. It would be great if early era poison making was tweaked a bit so all that utility was more usable. Maybe add a gradually increasing -point resist mod to the ranks of each poison. It would be awesome if the resist debuff poison was like a complimentary version of Occlusion of Sound, make it unresistable and debuff the resists that OoS doesn't.

    I know nothing about poisons after the early eras and would be interested to hear how they are improved in later expansions if anyone cares to share.
  10. Machentoo Augur


    What server do you play a necro on currently? At what point in progression?

    As far as I can tell, on the current TLP's past Velious or Luclin, there are no fights where the necro is going to mop the floor or be the hero. At best they might make it to the lower or middle tier of the melee dps, and that's on fights where everything is aimed at maximizing what the necro can do--multiple mobs to dot simultaneously, in the ideal group with adps, self parsing in range to catch the pet, etc etc. If there are necros being heroes on any TSS or TBS content, I'd love to see the parses and an explanation of how.

    Someone recently reported that as a necro main with best in slot raid gear, he started a zerker alt to box on raids, and the zerker alt in group/bazaar gear outparsed his main. Maybe that's a bad necro, I don't know, but that's been pretty consistent with what I've seen good necros able to do.
  11. Jaera Augur

    Starting in Underfoot, world drop poison stuff starts happening. This lets you make a variety of poisons that have more than one charge that do a bunch of things, but primarily you can make poisons that do a direct damage attack.

    The biggest ones are the tallon/vallon combo, with two rogues one uses each and they alternately make the other do a ton more damage.
  12. WaitingforMoreEQ WaitingforTBC

    Careful these are the live forums discussing nuance in DPS is forbidden. The only thing that matters is who top the raid buffed single target burst parse
  13. Coppercoz Augur

    I reflect on those couple of weeks we had real poisons on phinny fondly. Boy, was everyone else complaining about it, too. You'd think rogues were running around soloing PoF or something.

    Those poisons made life interesting. They generally were low aggro, but string a couple procs together and you couldnt rely on evade to bail you out. They didn't land much on raid bosses that I recall, but I still chuckle about a rogue against hulcror on quarm who got a couple of procs right off the bat. Needless to say, hulcror flattened him.

    All poisons really did was move xp groups along well and help speed up raid trash clears a little. Get a couple of rogues in group and you could really move along. Ah, those were fun times...
  14. HoodenShuklak Augur

    Necros should be in the top for Vulak in Velious. I know that.
  15. HoodenShuklak Augur

    Don't forget "in my guild where we only had 1 wizard and 24 or 70 man raids."
  16. Zipe The Healer

    Hello,
    I am just curious. You sure it's Underfoot? I see some quest for poisons flagged at SoD. Or you mean we get poisions in SoD, mats from quests, but during UF the mats are world drop?
  17. snailish Augur

    I agree that it is basically impossible thanks to live, unless they can set a line for live up to level 150 and not actually unbalance it with retro-impacting things. That's a naive big ask, but maybe they can do it.

    If one actually decides how hard each era should be and actually tunes thing such (again that is a big ask) I think rogues in classic will still stand out as underperforming. Up the damage on a few rogue only weapons and that is surgically fixed. This may be needed a few times in a few eras, and maybe a few backstab values get upped too.

    Wizards can get love the same way, with a spell or two being buffed at the right time, should it be warranted.


    Necros play great solo on progression, but in the overtuned trivial game have minimal role in a normal group and many are reporting they are lacklustre on raids. A dot revamp could fix some of this, or break all of it more on progression (even if it "fixes" live) --keeping in mind the dot revamp is about reducing debuffs --not a necro started or focused idea.

    soloing necros don't need a revamp that makes the rotation less DPS per mana, which includes factoring in potential fizzles of superdots. Done wrong, the revamp could make them less efficient with less buttons to push.

    Group level necros need something bursty, or the game needs to move away from bursty combat (there's a naive dream). Ideally the tune of the game would be set (see above) before radically doing this. A fast casting nuke line (take current necro nuke and do 1/3 of the damage for 1/3 of the mana but waaay faster cast) is a pretty simple way and is something that could be done outside of the dot revamp idea. Others have all sort of ideas to do with fast dots and recourses and such. I lean on simple here.

    Raid necros need the dot revamp so the debuff thing isn't making them unwanted. But they also need the content to not be trivial aka dying really fast because they are built for sustained damage that ramps up.
  18. HoodenShuklak Augur

    Necros have majr utility. They dont need to, nor shoukd they, do wiz or whatever is the top dps.

    Rogues on the other hand have no utility. Theres no trade off.
  19. Zanados Lorekeeper


    While the Zerker box is not quite in bazaar/group gear, it is absolutely true that my box in Anguish/DoDH/smattering of TSS gear absolutely dominates my necro in both sustained dps and burst dps on raids, and groups it is not even close. Necromancer with good luck will get into the mid/bottom top 10, and this is with hot switching spell gem sets to apply on average 9-12 dots already in TBS era. It is only downhill from here, with far more work for far less results as we get deeper into the game.

    The fact that I can basically turn on auto attack, spam volley button and occasionally press cooldowns on my Zerker, and dominate the damage of my Necromancer played at 100% on raids is quite disheartening.

    The necromancer has its advantages, independence, ability to do stuff on my own, already got 300 in all tradeskills on it, etc. The ONLY reason that I have not changed is due to the amount of time and small things I have already on the necro, that would require a herculean effort to reacquire on the zerker.

    As a comparison, here is the gear levels:

    Necromancer: https://eq.magelo.com/profile/3782480

    Berserker (Haven't updated since I got 2 pieces of TSS armor and moved cultural to BP/Legs, but it is still the same for everything that matters like Focuses): https://eq.magelo.com/profile/3817333
  20. Kobra Augur


    I played on every TLP except Coirnav. I have a necro on live, a necro on Phinny, and a necro on Lockjaw and Ragefire.

    Here is my issue with revamping the necro class like you say. Many people may not remember the introduction of swift dots in HoT but it trivialized playing a necro on raids, we had burst damage and sustain and the developers rightly nerfed it.

    If you revamp the dots its gonna be burstained for necros all over again and nobody gonna be happy about that.

    But here is why I take these posts people make with grain of salt. In classic where everyone had best in slot gear so when all things are equal, why is it I can consistently put out better parses than other necros? If everyone has bis gear, if we all have same latency (I live on east coast so my latency is worse), how can I consistently outparse other necros sometimes even by huge margins? The only explanation is skill at the class and knowledge of how the game works. So even in classic, the easiest its ever going to get for necro gameplay and there is already a huge skill gap. I don't trust these posts by other necros because odds are they probably are not bad, but they don't know how to get the full performance out of a necro and I guarantee if all things are equal (gear, lag, resists, spells) I would outparse them. I may not top the parse due to raid design, but I guarantee I would see better performance out of my necro than they are. Call it arrogance, but I have seen this result play out in every guild I have ever been in from low end family guilds to high end server first raid guilds.

    That is why I take exception to changing the way the mechanics work on a necro with a dot revamp. We already see a disparity in results of necros even in classic so removing the complexity will just take away the potential of the class.

    Even if I can't top the raid parse at least leave me with the smug satisfaction of outparsing the other necros.