Casters and melee

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Vrael, Apr 19, 2018.

  1. Vrael Lorekeeper

    So are casters going to get a boost to compete with melee, or can we do something about the +% to melee dps? Why has this not been dealt with at this point on these servers?

    Makes playing a caster pointless and over inflates other classes while helping trivialize content even more than it already is.
  2. Adonhiram Augur

    Well, we crit for triple, yay.
  3. Raltar Augur

    It really depends on your server. Eventually the two will trade off who is higher. On level increasing expansions, casters generally fair better. On non-level increasing expansions, melee will do better. But if you are on Agnarr, don't ever expect to beat melee. Except probably beastlords.
    snailish likes this.
  4. HoodenShuklak Augur

    On raid bosses on agnarr its usually a ranger or a wizard at the top.
  5. RandomStrategy Augur

    Back off my melee increase.....as a paladin, shut up, go away, nothing to see here. I finally can do something.
    Talonthalis likes this.
  6. Poledo_EQ Elder

    Mileage may vary.
    snailish likes this.
  7. snailish Augur

    Everyone is generally quite overpowered for the early content on progression servers. More overpowering isn't going to make the gameplay more fun. [If it is for you, it is available on any server past TSS and especially ones past SoD]

    We all have different views on how that plays out for a given classes or archetypes, and different expansion eras.

    We have to accept that if they think it messes live servers they aren't changing it.

    If the most obvious thing to you is a nerf to a specific class, well calling for it is a forum no-no. Best tactic is play on a server era your class preference works like you want, or play the OP class.

    Asking for rogues in classic to get a slight itemization boost is reasonable, because this remains a longstanding flaw in game design. That's a precise, surgical ask and makes sense as it doesn't overpower rogues at any point further along.

    Giving the rogue example, because whatever a person's class is that they want buffed, it kind of needs to fit that criteria. I think you can make that case for wizards at some points... other casters don't seem to be tiny population.
  8. Vrael Lorekeeper

    I play all melee to be competitive, every box team i see plays all melee. No ones calling for a nerf to a specific class, its not a specific class thats the problem. its a flat 55% increase to all damage specifically for Melee classes. All melee dps need to be toned down.
  9. snailish Augur

    You weren't calling for a specific class nerf, but that has been a common thread since they've attempted to make melee viable in a very caster-heavy game (at that point). Swiping melee down with a wide brush would really hurt specific classes more than others.

    A 55% reduction to all melee would mean seeing practically none of some melee on progression.

    It's not as simple as melee did X damage originally vs. casters did Y.

    Casters saw numerous improvements over the years that compounded to massive power gains, especially for pet classes and charm users. Most of these changes are live at the start of progression.

    Meanwhile, most melee was horribly undertuned/unbalanced unless in raid gear (sometimes not even then) for years upon years. They kind of got it better rounded in the 70+ game, though there are flavor of the expac trends still.

    -rogues remain underpowered in classic itemization I think many people would agree. Most that like rogue play either put up with it or wait for Kunark.

    -Monks remain (despite tuning over recent years) rather strong in the bare fists vs. the DPS offered by the in-era gear. The impression some of us have is that part of the issue with the monk fists is a scaling into the live game with associated things... maybe that is wrong and they can just turn them down a bit? But anyone can choose to play a monk.

    -global changes have retroactively made it different what weapons of a specific era are best for some classes (i.e., rangers) due to some fancy dev math involving ratio on 1 handers iirc. To "fix" this would mean reviewing every semi-decent weapon impacted for multiple expacs... it's not worth their time to bother. They get more bang for effort fixing AoC instances and relieving key & epic bottlenecks than worrying that lammies are better than they used to be and rangers are situational godmode on PoP era progression.

    Does this mean Agnarr is meleequest? Maybe it is, and that may be an appealing thing down the line.

    Is live balancedquest... well not yet (if we had real census data of "mains" I think caster win by far) but if that is your ideal every server but Agnarr is moving towards it (well except maybe Fippy...).
  10. Juzam Djinn Elder

    POP ( Maybe luclin exept a few mage for coth come VT) Forward you could successfully raid without any INT casters maybe even sooner.

    Raid composition
    12 monks ( for Crazy DPS)
    10 Ranger
    5 War
    3 rogues
    2 BL
    4 SHM
    4 DRU
    5 Clerics
    3 PAL
    3 SK
    5 Bards
    few zerkers come GOD ( readjust come 53 man raids)

    Slows, haste, DPS, buffs, ports, grp heals, chain rots all covered

    No real need for any int caster
  11. Zapsos Augur


    You would still be shooting yourself in the foot if you don't bring a couple of enchanters... could you do it without? Probably, but you could raid without any Warriors too, doesn't make it the optimal choice.
  12. Beimeith Lord of the Game

    So have melee. Damage tables were increased, ENRAGE was removed, and ac tables increased (meaning a LOT less deaths from AE damage).

    Casters have focus effects and potions. (Extra crit damage too, but this doesn't take effect until Luclin). Spells are also based on player level rather than spell level.

    However, there have also been other changes that were negative toward dps:

    There was the spell revamp that reduced raw damage of some spells while making them more efficient and take longer to refresh. (Ice Comet went from 1120 -> 808 damage, while the mana cost went from 400->200. 44% more efficient, 28% less raw dps. Cast time went from 6.3+0 seconds to 5+1.5 seconds for a further dps reduction. Other spells fared worse than this).


    The real difference at the lower levels has always been one of long term damage vs short term. Melee always had the edge over casters because autoattack dps is infinite while mana isn't. Casters were great on a short raid where they dumped a lot of mana quickly, and garbage in anything long term. This hasn't really changed all that much, but now melee are a lot better short term and long term than they used to be.