Final dot revamps.....canceled?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Vanlaven, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. Vanlaven Elder

    I may be wrong but as I understand it raids with even only 2 necros are easily hitting the debuff cap. It's just that as you get more than that, what gets blocked is more and more likely to be important...more important than what's blocking it. It's even worse now than it's ever been I believe because now you have several classes with super dots that are worth casing that never were before. Sham at 110 will have multiple dots with base dmgs at 10k-20k per tick. They have similar crit multipliers on those and a little less chance to crit but not nearly enough to make up for the fact that their dots are doing 3x the dmg our 110 ones will, let alone our older dots.
  2. Vanlaven Elder

    And before someone replies to my above post with "but necros have MORE dots", that is exactly the problem. We have to cast 3 times, use the debuff slots, blocking 3 other spells to do the same dmg.
  3. Maedhros High King

    I meant the dot consolidation was a good idea that went bad.
    Mostly because they did not start with the necro. Had they started with necro first, I dont think we would be seeing as many issues with debuff limits.
    I understand that every raid force is different but you make it sound like you guys cant event land tash and slow because there are 150 necro dots clogging up the works.
    We run at most 3 necros and for the most part have not had any issues.
    I really cannot believe at all that too many necro dots being on a mob is leading to all the other classes dps being cut short because of missed debuffs...
    If your debuffers are unable to land critical debuffs LONG before a necro stacks 15-20 dots on the raid boss... then there is a problem and its not your necros.
  4. Maedhros High King

    Scornfire is the class lead for necros in a guild that has 5 active necros.
    I think its safe to assume he is well aware of the debuff limit issues. ;)
    I also agree with him, dot consolidation means good necros will still be doing 15-20 dots, but now utilizing ones that they normally do not have the time to cast and keep rolling.
    If they make some of the lesser dots share cast lines like so many of the 2 tick dots do then maybe it will encourage necros to nuke once they get their major dots rolling.
  5. Vlerg Augur

    not if they reduce the duration of dots but increase the damage.

    So instead of being able to stack 20 dots before the first one fall, you can only stack 10 before the first one fall, but the damage is increased to compensate.

    The ramp up time would be faster (which is a good thing for the group necro, and add-heavy raid) but burn/AAs might have to be re-tuned accordingly.

    It would be a pretty big rework, some spell line would have to be scrapped (to be honest casters in general have way too many useless spell line clogging up our spellbook in the first place...stuff that was usefull 15 years ago, eventually became obsolete yet got copy/pasted every level increase since then)
  6. Maedhros High King

    You're right, thats another way to get necros casting fewer dots.
    I feel like that leads us even more quickly towards necros possibly doing too much burst dps but there is definitely not any "simple" solution to this situation.
    I would rather the devs continue to take their time to make sure the revamp is done right and we don't see super OP necros like in TDS.... necros topping Praetor Vitio parse ffs.
  7. Vanlaven Elder

    I'm assuming necros will be absolutely incapable of putting more than about 12 dots on the same mob after the revamp. I don't think utilizing long neglected lines is going to be an option. I thought that it was pretty much a given that many of our similar dot lines would be merged
  8. Jhenna_BB Proudly Prestigious Pointed Purveyor of Pincusions

    Even this freshly nerfed Ranger still hopes Necros will have to cast less dots at some point. I'm surprised (well, not really) they didn't just re-tune necros in beta. What do I know, right? :p
  9. Vanlaven Elder

    Just curious if anyone sees any obvious down side to putting a significant portion of several of our dots dmg after the revamp into a doom type dot at the end of them.

    And no the fact that it's would keep us from ramping up quickly is not a problem because that's literally by design. If we significantly shorten our ramp up it will almost certainly lead to a nerf and DB swings for the fences when they nerf. Plus they can tune swifts specifically for that if they wish.
  10. Spellfire Augur

    I don't mind waiting. I would also like to see the revamp done right.

    However, from what I've seen so far ( Hi Druids :)) , I don't have much hope left that this will be done correctly.
    Maedhros likes this.
  11. Vanlaven Elder


    TBH when I made this thread I was just looking for confirmation that it is still on the radar. Was hoping that there was some recent dev mention of it that I couldn't find, though discussing the pitfalls and solutions is always nice too.
  12. Xnao Augur

    The last time a dev mentioned this was in necro bp click thread where ngreth said "it didn't happen."

    I once suggested that dots start to decay after thirty seconds or so, however long it takes to load 12 dots on. In order to do max dps, a necro would have to refresh early. Though the decay would have needed to be faster than the damage from a 13th dot. It was vetoed.

    I think doom ticks would also be vetoed because devs are petrified of making a change and having it backfire.
  13. Vlerg Augur

    What about a dot explosion? some spell/AA that consume all present dot on the target and turn it into a big blast? (the blast could even be directed a mob that wasn't the DoT'd one).

    Not sure if such a mechanic is implemented in EQ, but necro rotation would turn into ' load up 12 dot -> consume for big dmg -> load up 12 dot -> consume for big dmg'
  14. Gialana Augur

    These are potential issues I see, though there could be coding modifications to make them non-issues.
    1) Using the shaman dots as an example, adding the doom portion of the dot increases the mana cost of the dot. If the same were true for necros, I don't think you'd want every dot line to have a doom effect since you might be in situations where you'd never see the doom portion fire. But having a doom effect on select dots could make those dots situational.

    2) It's been a long time since I've tested the following, so it may already have changed. I cast only one dot on a mob, a dot which triggered the doom effect. When the doom effect triggered, the damage was not attributed to my necro. For that reason, I think, the damage did not appear to be affected by any crit multipliers. Even though the base damage of the doom portion was much larger than the base dot, it did less damage per tick to the mob than when the base dot was running.

    3) Is it possible to recast the base dot while its doom counterpart is running? Having a doom component on every necro dot does nothing to alleviate their contribution to the debuff limit.

    I don't mention the above to shoot down your idea. I only hope to bring more information to the table.
  15. ShadowMan Augur

    No other class that rivals us in sustained gives up anything. They maintain their controllable burst and drop amazing group dps all while still competing with us in sustained. Being a niche class when the game has changed isn't something I think we should still be lobbying for. When that niche only appears with kite-able content or long drawn out single or dual target high hit point encounters without gimmicks. Both of which keeps getting reduced more and more each year, its down to a few spots in the group game and maybe a token raid or 2 each expansion. The rest prevents solo kiting being really viable or has gimmick raids that might allow necros to parse pad but make necros not very meaningful to overall win success like burst dps despite an overall parse showing stuff roughly equal.

    Retaining 10-12 dots with drastically boosted damage at least for 1-2 keeps the flavor of ramping up and keeping busy but brings us into the more current design of the game. They just need to revamp our dots as someone outlined in the beta thread. Not making things super complicated like lots of doom dots that just make us still spike super high but delayed which isnt useful in most settings but makes everything appear ok when its allowed to parse pad.
  16. strongbus Augur

    give us one dot per line fire/pos/dis/magic/lifetap/mana drain/corrpution/snare(make sure the dot can still land even if the snare is resisted/mob is unsnareable)/wound make them linked to dots of the same line so we can't cast more then 1 per line.

    then give us a passive aa that increase the base damage of each of dots based on how many we have going. the more dots the we have on the mob the more damage is added to each dot. make it so if we got 9 dots on the mob the damage is = to what we do with 20 or so dots now.

    this solves a number of current issues.

    1st with 13 spell slots that give us 10 dots and 3 for other things. such as a lifetap dd to proc rb. have allance up for raids. blood up to trigger synergy.

    2nd. it don't cause issue with having to code our dots like splurt or wound. where if we recast to early we can lose dps

    3rd it won't give us to big of a burst setting where we get crap form wizzys.
  17. Xnao Augur

    Elidroth said that an AA like that was impossible.

    However there is a new AA dev that may be able to work it.

    When Atvar said necros have been bringing ideas to the table for years, he should have we have brought all the ideas to the table. As linking dots was long considered the worst case situation for the class. Which may be why they are hesitant.
  18. menown Augur


    From what I remember, the reasons why linking DoT lines was "the worst case situation for the class" was because of 2 reasons. First reason, the class would suffer more on certain resist immune NPCs. This means that instead of casting more lower level spells that would land, you are stuck with just the highest rank of the spells that land. Second reason, the class would be dumbed down to our lesser intelligent Int-class users. Just spamming DDs after all DoTs have been applied is not challenging enough.

    I am not here to argue for either side. This just provides some extra context to past arguments against linking DoT lines.
  19. Xnao Augur


    You are correct 100%. I only brought it up because of the other suggestions being made. I feel like the dead horse was mutiliated trying to find another way revamp other than the linking.
  20. Vanlaven Elder

    1 is a non issue because I wasn't saying hat the doom effect should be bonus damage, just that they should take the total dmg that they want the dot to do and put like 60-70% of it into a doom effect. There is no reason to increase mana cost per dmg for that.

    2 I have never had this problem. My wounds dots attribute their doom effect (virulent x iirc) to me and they certainly receive my crit multipliers.

    3 this is where this idea fails. I actually just realized this myself a few hours ago but yea unless they mad the doom effects exclude the dot that procs them it would just end up the same as now with too many dots.