Double cleric nerf - deserves its own thread

I would just like to know WHY make these changes without a single syllable of explanation? Yes QM was exploited when it was first introduced but they fixed that quickly. Why the changes now especially when end-stage mana pools are so large it gives a barely noticeable bump? The lack of explanation is infuriating.

And if you are going to nerf it why beat it down with a sledgehammer? Why not a smaller more reasoned approach. Linking timers, doubling re-use times, and adding mana cost are a huge beat down when possibly even one nerf might have done the job.

This is like Tesla selling me a really decent Pioneer entertainment center but then during a recall they replace it with a crappy old AM/FM radio. Breech of contract? Bait and switch? Screw the customer?

Of all the nerfs in the patch this definitely seemed to be the most surprising/uncalled for one. Hope you clerics receive some fun toys in new expansion to make things more interesting

I'm not advocating cleric nerfs, just posing a question.
If your class can handle all raids while yawning/half asleep, why make it better at its job? Wouldn't it be funner if things were more of a challenge?

Nobody likes people taking away their toys. Taking away QM doesn't make it harder, just more infuriating when you die. We just have to be a bit more careful with our multibind. There are other option to recoup mana. Intentionally dieing for a DR, or if another cleric is oom, giving them my QM and Staunching after. Tons of regens from other classes as well. IM TIRED OF THEM TAKING AWAY TOYS. This class isn't fun anymore, it's a fkn job.

How about add ranks to smite and get rid of TU?

Doing the Hokie-Pokie while spamming one key isn't a challenge....or fun. (Newer expansions)
Micro-managing the heals for 3 different groups using ALL your tools is both. (Older expansions)

(real yawn is healing during Prince or (shudder) whenever we do Prince's achievement)..


The smite/ITU AA didn't really help my job as a cleric. It was just fun to do it and throw in a little bit of DPS. The changes to QM just make it so I won't ever cast it (can't wait to see innovative tells to persuade me to do so). Won't make it harder for me but was nice to give to a recently dead mana user ... or a ranger.


I feel like QM and ITU/smite was just something the devs could toss at the class and make little more fun, but then they took it away or made it worthless.

I'm hoping so. It's getting harder to find decent clerics to recruit.

I have to admit, I've always thought the idea of being a cleric was fun.
But the execution is really lacking.

It was fun (I miss the stress of healing during raids) but as usual, abilities get farmed out to the other priest classes while they got huge improvements and tools. Again, I feel the class just stagnated far too long. I'm hoping the devs will be receptive during Beta.

It would really help if the devs would at least explain the changes. They used to be more involved with their userbase.

"during beta" will be far too late.
The major decisions will be made by then, beta is only about bugy and perhaps a bit of fine-tuning.

Also, i don't think your idea of "fun" is shared by "all".
I hear complaints of our healers about "getting shouted at" for "letting die" people on raids.
Incidentially, the people shouting have (next to) no clue about the restrictions of the priest they shout at.

I think that people want the tools to make their job "nice and easy" and over all effectively.
Not all suffer from ADHS or so and find healing/buffing whole groups besides their own "fun".
The "effectively" has been greatly reduced by this one change for clerics.
Outside of undying life and single-target casts, i think cleric would benefit most from another fast-cast heal, similar to the SHM's.
2.8s or what it is for syllable/word is just.. bleh.

Anyone shouting at anyone else is just bad form.

How can they improve the cleric class without making the other priest classes unable to heal effectively?

They made all 3 tank classes able to tank most stuff, so that groups don't revolve around a war only.

If clerics become 2x better at healing, either they get more bored, or content gets so hard you can only use clerics, which is even worse than bored clerics.

Maybe it's time for clerics to do more utility than just healing. Cleric's target heals have so much overhealing anyways. I don't know. Something to think about.

They can give some tools to the cleric that make their JOB easier.
And some others to make their LIFE easier and more fun.
But they just took a bit of both away, so either is unlikely, sadly.
Still, the possibility without nerfing druid or shaman healing is there of course.

Clerics do not need to get "twice as good" as they are now.
But outside of undying life (which has a 1min reuse), shamans have he fastest group heal (which has a much lower reuse) for example - i always wondered about that.
So imo a "regular" fast-cast group heal (around 1s casting time) with a normal 2.5s reuse would be in order for example.
SHM and DRU get ferocious growth - Clerics get.. surety, but nothing like that short-time buff i think.

I am not into clerics too much so i do not claim to know all about them, but since their QM has been over-nerfed, some "loving" in that area or returning/increasing mana would be in order.
And lastly, for the groupgame, a little versatility would be nice i think.
Some AAs/triggered offensive stuff.
But since they did just "combine" needlessly two of these as well, that's also quite unlikely to happen.

Generally more of the often-used stuff moved to AAs so they can free up some spellslots for some "fun" stuff would be nice, since more spellslots are even more unlikely than them taking back the nerfs they did.

In short:
Clerics remain good only at the defensive and "needed" only in raids.
Sadly, like most SHD in game probably, most CLRs in the game are merely boxed these days.

As a cleric raid main, I think this change was totally unwarranted, and made healing even MORE boring than before. The VP/QM change just means we can't help other DPS feed mana and feel that useful. I think the nerf to having QM block QM for 4 min was an OK nerf, stopping just endlessly feeding a wizzy in burn mode type thing. But this, well, its one less hotbutton to have up on a bar.

The TU/Smite nerf, ugh. As it is, TU is a risky sort of proposition, half the times I nuked the colored skeletons, I'd end up tanking one in the last event. That was sort of fun. I could still burn smite on refresh and not care about aggro. Now, only 1 toy. much less fun, and still a lot of aggro.

How about giving clerics something in exchange. Something, anything other than just chain casting heals for a whole nights raid. We were not OP since the nerf to SB, and even then, it was just mostly good for beating through that one Hive mission with all the adds(working overtime?), or PL'ing alts.

Give clerics something - make it a 5 min refresh sure, but something to do once in a while is all we ask.

Another option - a buff spell that links dmg we do to heals for that buffed person, so that we can try and do feeble offensive dps, while keeping 1 person healed (still risks if other in group get dmg, but hey it would be SOMTHING to do besides pure healing).

We are the only class without an invis, even our stupid fade puts up a sanctuary, not an invis on us.

PS - get your management to buy and read a copy of N Machiavelli's The Prince. Where it talks about it being better, when you take over a land, to kill all the enemies at once, then stop killing so people won't fear they will be next and rise against you - replace Kill with Nerf. Its still pretty valid

I want a new Aura of Divinity, a Reverent Aura that actually does something, a new version of the lvl 97 summoned Hammer of -Handing, trade in TU for a better Smite, and a non-garbage Shining.

I would add to this list a better way to parse heals from spells like Promised that credit the heal amount to the target rather than the caster. Shining, Vie, and Marks all operate this way.

And speaking of Promised, instead of just overwriting an existing PR how about any subsequent casts getting converted to a small heal similar to a Remedy?

And speaking of overwriting existing spells, I think in general this is one of those areas that makes playing a cleric "not fun". So many of our spell casts are useless in a raid environment because of overwriting and/or not crediting the caster. The devs have given us a lot of spells with wonderful healing utility but at the end of the day the cleric who robotically casts the same 3 or 4 direct heals on the MT is the one heralded as the "top" or "best" cleric because nobody but main tanks parse their heals! Meanwhile the healers throwing out promises, splashes, alliances, marks, shining's, vies, wards, celestials, rezzes, DI's, QM's, and re-buffs get squat except the personal satisfaction of knowing they've been used.

This is not a dev or class or spell problem. It's a problem with whatever group of people has that mindset you mentioned. A cohesive heal team doesn't care just about parse numbers and knows that all those "promises, splashes, alliances, marks, shining's, vies, wards, celestials, rezzes, DI's, QM's, and re-buffs" you mentioned, not to mention all the other healing that goes on are important things needed to succeed. No one whose opinion matters "herald the top or best cleric" on the MT parse" as being better than the rest. That's the easiest healing job in the raid.

Would I like if Promised used the casters credit rather than the recipient? Yes - because then it would would use our AA's and heal more. Who cares who gets credit?

Use the parser / logger / cast counts to drive improvement, measure your own performance, improve quality absolutely. It's not a pissing contest. Not saying you have that mentality - but some of your colleagues appear to based on your post.

No, my post was directed at one of the reasons the cleric role isn't perceived as "fun". It's simply the disconnect between action and feedback and especially in the raid environment. Wouldn't it be nice if you could subscribe to a statistical analysis of your raid event that would get mailed out later that evening when the server had the resources to evaluate it?

Yes, I've got GamParse, but having that level of log detail turned on has a tendency to lag me out due to our poor DSL broadband service. Yes, I'd get better if it were available here but it's not. So I rarely parse anymore. Which brings me full circle to my feeling that the designers should keep in mind the feedback loop which affects our ability to determine if a course of action is "fun" or not.

A good example was the new EOK spell Divine Response for clerics. To this day it is not documented in-game. And I cannot find any indication it ever actually fires in-game. And I have bug reported this over the months without any response. I expect the spell is broken but with no thought to providing a decent level of game feedback it's brokenness is easy to overlook and miss.

What the hades? Getting a new job has kept me out of Dev chat during working hours and off these forums/out of game for a bit.

I'm usually not one to express frustration but why why why. I can say, as someone who is already well undergeared for the content my guild is doing due to an injury break from the game, I certainly can't be affording to help anyone else now with mana as I'll have to save it for *if* I need it.

And as one of those mid tier guilds who already has a lot of struggles, on events where there are undead, clerics were part of the DPS strategy so that goes out the window. I always was a multi-tasking cleric who utilized every AA I had in groups and raids (I don't just cast heals).

Double double *!*@