The over-use of charming

I suspect that charm is actually broken. I have heard several enchanters say that their PoFire pets do more damage (higher max hit) when charmed than when charm is off.

I wonder if there's something in there which is supposed to make charm less powerful, but makes it more so instead, at certain levels?

That could be largely because if you're one of twelve enchanters on a raid, raiding is very boring!

Are you sure that's not from them charming a backstabbing pet that is capable of FACESTABBING while tanking? If not, that should definitely be researched further. They're supposed to be -20% dps and -20% dmg in pop per the nerf that went in back in the Pop era due to enchanter cleric mage combos monopolizing BoT minis

The only gauge they have is how much the pet does against them, gear dependent, compared to what it does to a mob charmed. I guess one could /duel and compare that way, charmed and then uncharmed.
If it is like everything else in the game it does less charmed.

Actually two Enc slots is all most have reserved for a normal raid, CC aint as big a deal as it used to be. More if possible but do not bet on it.
And raids are boring no matter what unless someone does something stupid or RNG really works against you. Chasing loot not fun on those things.

I'd expect it to do less charmed, but the enchanter in question said it did more - at least, the max hit was higher. I couldn't say for myself though, just what he reported (I had pet damage filtered out). I don't think the max hit is gear dependant though.

RNG would account for the perception, only a parse of a duel and fight, should not take but one, with the same exact mob would show anything.

Few remember enchanter animation was a blender originally. Hand it a couple fs daggers, sltw, and watch the wall of hits. Charm pet was better, but in era where many were still playing on dial up, groups didn't want to deal with charm pets.

Charming was certainly much less in use an groups usually did not like it. I wonder if something changed because people already knew that tashan and if possible malo would make the pet very unlikely to rebel, and runes have been in came since day 1 ...

It was like the above poster said. People had poor internet connections, so dealing with a charm break had a decent chance of leading to the death of the enchanter and probable wiping of the group.

They also didn't have the abundance of gear that has been available on these servers. So they couldn't take the hits that many enchanters on these TLPs can take.

We were always on cable since the mid 90s so never saw any of the modem problems and even then I doubt that was the cause of charm not being used as extensively.

It aint the gear, even in full cloth the chars are very tough now compared to that time. <---This

That coupled with the DPS push of later years has forced the class to it's benefit to employ charm widely. Doing so has exploded the knowledge of the device making something once uncommon to see now widespread.

It's a combination of expansion, gear, and knowledge.

Everyone most seem to think the Charm line stays the same throughout the expansions - which is NOT the case.

Currently on Agnarr, Enchanters can charm up to NPC level 51? And, people are exaggerating the power of classic enemies... However, during the Kunark, Velious, and Luclin expansions; Enchanters will only be able to charm up to 53 (excluding rapture's mechanics.) Therefore, Enchanters will take a significant drop in power compared to classic. You will see another decrease in power when PoP releases, because Enchanters won't be able to charm anything outside of DC pets in Tier 2+ Planes until they receive Command of Druzzil @ 64 (in which their power will slightly return.) Moreover, In PoP and beyond Enchanters are very gear dependent as NPCs can quad over 500 (4 attacks a round) and some can frontal backstab for over 1k! They hit so hard that some can effectively 2-round an under-geared and under-AA'd player.

In GoD, I believe the sustained damage of a charm pet can 3-4 round even Elemental geared Enchanters, if they aren't paying attention.

Anyway, this is why charm will see no changes outside of maybe flagging a few additional NPCs as uncharmable.

You mean Dictate, maybe? Situational, for sure and most enchanters will never cast it except to goof around.

This is absolutely correct. I tried charming in CoD. It was ugly. It's doable, sure, but you need different tools (such as a druid/ranger to snare the pet) and it's much less effective. Tier 1 is still relatively easy but you'll be bored to death in PoD, PoN (which doesn't have instances), and PoJ.

That's interesting. I pretty vividly remember charming Velium Hunters in Velks on Phinny and giving them conflag daggers and tola robes and watching them turn into mob blenders that could basically murder the entire castle area + upper dogs + some mobs down the well before respawns. Whatever that charm pet was in PoFire was absurdly OP too. Enchanters remain GODS throughout all of Classic > PoP with very little dropoff.

You and I have very different definitions of "significant drop in power"

And at no risk! /eyeroll

He might be referring to raids. They suck & are boring as in Kunark & beyond, and don't get interesting in a raid environment again until like GoD, even then. Meh.

Yes, Dictate is the spell! Sorry, I was going off of straight memory.

( Sorry for the double post.)

And, you did all that in era, at max level, and solo? Or are you leaving some things out to bolster your argument? What type of gear did you have? Heck, even if you could, I think you're exaggerating because during the Velious era on Phinny, every instance of Velks was packed with 45+ people at all hours of the day and night for about 1 1/2 to 2 months straight. In order to accomplish what you claim (in era,) you would literally be steam rolling groups all by yourself.

Don't kid yourself man.

(I'm going to assume you're now going to say that you did all this was during Luclin?)

With a charm pet, Enchanters are very strong, no one is denying that. But 'absurdly OP,' is just not the case.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=6057 Is actually the best pet in era that an Enchanter can get in Velks.. They hit harder than the hunters, and backstab for more

Healbro is 95% accurate "Conflag daggers bro? I wouldnt waste time on that with how little pets utilize the proc when charmed vs when they break" in a group setting an Enchanter is very good throughout classic-planes. They even remain powerful in Gates with their charm pet dps, Omens and beyond is when you start to see a shift in the charm mechanics and the class in general. Which is why any balance requests for a class that comes from a server that will NEVER progress beyond a certain point, should be taken with a grain of salt.

Not coincidentally, this is also the point in the progression arc, in which enchanters in full cultural, RSS, and DSK ac augs, with last blood augs become tanks on the character itself instead of the charmpet. Granted, the mitigation is a little below a true tank, but so is the charmpet's tanking ability with how their AC is compared to a PC.