Please Fix Agnarr Raiding or you will kill the Server.

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Quill, Jun 4, 2017.

  1. Quill Augur

    Well... I certainly won't disappoint. Eat up!

    So ya... went on raid tonight in order to see whats what and to make sure I was right. I am.

    Was in Hate and went in on a regular raid of 30-40 in non-instance looking to kill minis. There was a main guild running it and they simply added us(was in a group that had been looking to kill trash) because we already happened to be in zone. There weren't really mobs up for charm. We went regular tank and assist and all that jazz.

    It was like watching paint dry. It was like we had re-entered Vex Thal. The moment the game pushes you to break out of your normal raid size and pack that raid with 40% more fodder or take 40% longer to kill things effectively, you become a number, a cog in a big wheel, and it starts working directly against the smaller guild dynamic we're trying to get back to with Agnarr and that existed in the early game.

    MOTM works on a regular Progression Server, i'll give them that. It works because people want to see the content when current as they go through each xpac, and really just want the kill experience and they don't care about gearing so the key core gets showered in order to be more effective in doing more damage, bring the size down, and generate splits as you get toward the end of the xpac, or move into the next.

    Everybody on Agnarr HAS SEEN THIS ****. Lots of times. Likely on other TLP's to boot. A lot of them have even seen it when it was current on Live, when it didn't take a packed raid(unless, of course, we're talking Luclin which was always slow...) of mindless damage monkeys to down something at a reasonable rate and make up for a kludge fix like MOTM. Its one thing to take a long time because you're lowballing it. Its another to take an overly long time because DBG enforces it take 40% longer. AOW used to take 25-30+ minutes in some guilds. Now it takes 40 or 50?

    The funny part is, they're(nor a troller like yourself), not likely to have any clue the damage they're doing before its way too late to fix it, all while wondering What Just Happened. Sit back and watch. The people who they really need on this server will run like mad from even the IDEA of packing raids to win fights due to some kludge buff(unless of course you're a COHH groupie.. of which his guild has like 800+ people in it at last count.. but I digress). But put simply...

    This. Is. Not. Phinny.

    All we want is a game approximating the original that we can kill stuff on while progressing our gear without having to be dictated to that we need to add 40% more people to kill it in the same amount of time that it did originally, or have it take 40% longer... when the raids were already decent to begin with. And if we win, we win. And if we don't.. well.. stories! We want to build GUILDS, not SOULLESS MACHINES(Great name for a guild btw). I can only imagine what stuff like THO would be like, where it used to take half an hour. An hour? Rather than 6 hours in VT, we take 8 or 10?

    I'm sure it won't matter at all to the cruise ships(of which I predict there will be a lot fewer given this stops at PoP), but it'll kill anything short of that.

    Seriously.. is that so hard to understand? Kill the buff on this server, or kill the Agnarr server. Your choice, devs.
  2. Throndor Augur

    Pure gold! Ha!
  3. Kahna Augur

    The server will be fine. People will be fine. You can kill everything with 40 people, and AoW doesn't take 40 minutes, it doesn't even take 25 minutes to kill. The sky is not falling, and MOTM is not that bad. My guild (40 mains and assorted boxes) did VT in 4 hours. Once PoP came out we took 2-3 groups and did it in 3 hours. Not a full clear, but all the important stuff.
  4. Quill Augur

    I am... been gone 4 years. And I don't care *why* MOTM is on mobs. It was a horrible solution, particularly for this ruleset.

    Do you know how many people play SK on Agnarr. Not many.

    I call bs. A wizard nukes for 800 in classic. 6 people in start of era gear would get destroyed by Inny. Maybe after gearing, I could see it being possible. But you'll never know either way. Now, if you're talking out of era gear.. then SURE. In-content, It was also always possible for 25-40 to burn him down, but that was part of the fun of it. I loved the Innoruuk raid. You know that word.. FUN?

    That isn't a problem on this server. You don't seem to understand that we aren't looking to gimmick mobs. We simply want to fight them as they were fought in the past with the numbers we used in that era. If some goobers play games, that's on them. We're the ones that would be here long after they're gone.

    Nope... not really. Your argument is pointless and in trying to solve one perceived problem, you created another much more insidious problem. It wasn't an issue on Phinny, in fact it was a bonus. On Agnarr, you'll kill this server with that bs. Simply let us play the game we remember.

    This server ends at PoP and its all instanced now, nobody cares about your SK army issues. As much as people point and giggle.. nobody truly cares about the boxed mage groups either.

    They do care if the fights are going to take 40% longer in order to soothe your bloody ego that you need a raid to kill them. We're going to bring that.. ok?

    Let me guess... you were decked(particular key classes) in raid gear.. yes? You got this gear by initially packing early in-content raids, yes?

    When people say that 'you can kill everything with 40 people', its usually because of this caveat. WE WERE RAID GEARED SO LOLZ. Raid with people in group gear that you're having to help out due to turnover, and that couldn't raid VP or VT because of keying(which still will take long time with some people). Watch what happens. Yes, in my earlier years before I played high-end, AoW took 25-30 minutes in one of those guilds. 40% longer? LOL. And trust me.. getting AoW down was a big deal and made us feel good. We didn't do it as good as the big boys.. but we were proud.

    The point is to take 35-40 and gear them up the chain(now that we have absolute access to the events) without having to need to pack for 72 when its fresh to gimmick raid gear into the guild. It should only take what it took back in the day in roughly the time that it took. In and of itself, that was quite enough.

    Trust The Game.
  5. Aenoan Augur

    I don't want to be rude but it kinda sounds like just a bunch of players from p99 are just having trubs with how DBG has set up TLP raiding. Cause we didn't have trouble w/ it. Just stick with it, you'll eventually kill something.
    PathToEternity likes this.
  6. Quill Augur


    Are you kidding me? I wouldn't play P99 if you paid me.

    You clearly have no idea what i'm talking about.. so don't worry about it. You'll start seeing what I mean soon enough. So will they.

    GoD coming out on Phiny will help immensely in illustrating the problem... because the Phinny folks that are carpetbagging over here are going to find out there is a lot less people willing to pack raids for them. And why bother when GoD is now available? They did all that stuff before. Bring on the Packed Raids on new content on Phinny.

    If they did this right, and simply let us play the game, you'd have tens if not hundreds of guilds progressing on Agnarr, because that's what the game was originally intended to support(and now made capable through instancing). Not a very select few cruise ships. The cruise ships are the exact antithesis of this game.

    Trust The Game.
  7. Quill Augur

    Been gone for about four... but played pretty constantly from 2002-2013 and saw most changes within that timeframe.

    Here is a dirty little secret... *shush* a lot of these raids were never hard to do to begin with.

    There has always been a varying level of difficulty in the game. For every tough as nails mob like AoW, you had Vindi who could drop to pretty much anybody. Kunark? Venril Sathir dropped more times to more guilds than a hooker. Usually, those mobs didn't drop great gear, but they could be set as training raids. Entry points to the expansion. Trak? You grabbed that guy by the nose and inevitably he'd drop about 10 seconds later along with half your raid. BUT YOU WON. You did it together! That's what gives people the bug to come back and get better. You didn't need this sensitive raid ARTEEST crap on every raid to be able to pull out the W.

    Inny? The first time I killed him in late 2002, I never saw him alive. Even then, the joke was that he didn't drop anything except half your raid. And often raids wouldn't bother and simply be after the tier gear from trash, and the hand. But we did it anyway, by the hair of our teeth, and we got the bug. Some persisted and joined better guilds, some didn't. Who cares? The point is to have fun and get CRAZY STORIES like i'm telling right now. Anybody who played during that time has them. Its not to be forced into a situation where you have to pack the raid and play perfect to win. If we had to do that back then, i'd have quit the game outright. You look to get That Cheap Hit, so people persist and learn to get better and do the harder stuff.

    In 2006, I was the MT on the server first Sleeper VS Kill. We were all like 51-52-ish at the time, but decided to go anyways. Third try, we got the pull proper, and held him long enough for the casters to put him down(along with half the raid of course.. which was like 25 people). Nope... now you gotta bring 40% more fodder :p.

    So seriously.. you needed a decent raid to kill Trak? Or VS? That was never the case on Live. They got blown up into a frothy cinder by casual raid guilds(and sometimes even more established raiding guilds made a mess) all the time(Gorenaire was a bit of a pain though, but usually dropped).

    None of the epic mobs were really that hard if you could catch them up. Are we going to have to pack raids for the Cleric Dragon too, just to be safe?


    The funny part is, I think the misconception here is that you seem to think that a Casual Guild can even be found on Phinny. For casual guilds, a good portion of the raid back then may have never raided in their lives or had little experience with it. For casual guilds now, they may be over a decade removed. Some might not even raid at all but logon to do tradeskills to help the guild. Either way, they didn't come back for packed raids where they're simply a number. They came back to play that game they remember, only with unrestricted access to the actual content and with the guild of their choosing.

    Truth. But making this a PoP-locked server ALLREADY DID THAT. As soon as you 'end the game', there is no more progression as you know it. My ultimate point being that while MOTM works for Phinny, it will not work for Agnarr, specifically due to the ruleset. The point isn't necessarily progression to 'see the content'. We've seen it. The point is progression in order to form social bonds via guilds as we gear and beat it. You know... that game pre-GoD? People LEFT because things moved to that type of packed house raiding, so much so they lowered the size to 54. Have they even made a 72 person raid in years? They certainly never made one in Classic.

    Has it been so long, you forgot? Some of us haven't. I hope to god there are devs with a heart that haven't.

    Ideally, at its end this server should feature guilds on different tracks and speeds that progress from Velious to Time(and often backslide), in a constant cycle, with new people joining at various points, sometimes rolling up a new alt and playing two different guilds at different points on different days. This could be the most casual friendly server you've ever seen. Thats the game at play here. But it can't be done with MOTM. It worked on Phinny because everybody had the carrot of GoD, or a new expansion, to look forward to, and as such simply rolled 35-40 player content with 72 to get it broken.

    Trust The Game.
  8. Renshu Augur

    Wow

    Your logic here....

    Surely people wouldn't create a bunch of SK's if they removed MoTM....

    Are you just trolling or does your brain really work this way?
  9. snailish Augur

    A lot of times EQ's is viewed within rather narrow "it must be this way" lens. Sometimes a radical thing is tried. Consider the raiding design philosophy:

    What if the real problem with raiding in EQ is the notion that you need more than 40+ players to do anything? (recognizing that on progression, with MoTM that people are doing content without needing full raids already).

    Suppose a raid was limited to 18 players and in-era tuning was that it would be a smartly balanced pack of well-geared players. Aka raiding in era is meant to be hard. You need a team that tactically functions together because sheer numbers aren't enough to win. They might not even be enough to win when your team is 5 levels higher in a next level-increase expac. Challenge = accomplishment.

    If raid cap size had been radically reduced for progression MoTM wouldn't have been needed, or at least only the pet wall aspect of it may have?
  10. Renshu Augur


    There is an out there with all custom content that has raiding tuned to 18 players. It was a really fun and challenging game.
  11. ayoforYayoh Augur

    Any and all faith has been lost in the once great TLP forum.

    i'm out.
  12. MaxTheLion Augur

    Unless the OP drives a steam powered automobile, the way the cars were "intended" when made, he needs to shut the up and realize things change. Having been gone for four years, at first he was just ignorant about MotM. Even after people explained its reasoning, he refuses to accept and is now willfully ignorant. All servers eventually start to decline. It won't be MotM that causes it. It'll be once somebody groups with you in-game, they'll think you're so dumb that they won't want to play there anymore.
    Many people who did not take a four years hiatus and have experienced TLP with and without MotM are telling you the current format works.
  13. PathToEternity pathtoeternity.pro

    Is OP really taking the position that 40 players in patchwork and banded should be clearing Sky without trouble?

    How about the Sky keys become NO RENT again and then you can tell us how hard MOTM is.
  14. daffie999 Augur

    Does this mean I have to get up early and pretend to get ready for class... Then skip it?
  15. Bailen Augur


    We are talking about Agnarr, right?
  16. Finchy Augur

    Pretty sure Quill is a troll...very dedicated props.
    Renshu and Alekyne like this.
  17. Aenoan Augur

    Ok so maybe you haven't played p99, but you obviously haven't played any of the previous TLPs. If you had you know why we have the MOTM, and you'd know about the poop-storm that was naggy socking with 5-6 SK boxes to instakill a DRAGON with Harmtouch. Or the glory that was pet walling every boss for the first 3 expansions. People have explained this and you are chosing to obviously ignore it...and ignore a lot of the major changes that makes all this content server trivial or the fact Faceless Empire is steamrolling the content as expected.

    So it sounds like a you problem not a game problem.
    snailish and Your_Ad_Here like this.
  18. Amoeba Augur

    OP: Clearly you are in the minority, when you suggest everyone is behind you and agrees with you and somehow you speak for everyone.

    MOTM is in. Sorry. If it kills raiding for you, there are a number of other servers you can enjoy, clearly it doesn't kill raiding for people here.

    All of your arguments are moot at this point. It is in the game. No indication devs are removing it. And no indication it is hated. In fact, you're the sole person complaining, drawing droves of supporters for the feature.
  19. RadarX Augur

    For those of you who I haven't gotten to yet for warnings, please do remember we moderate these forums. If posts are not complaint with our forum guidelines we do take action.
  20. Lankie Augur

    Phinny is an extreme hardcore TLP, the majority of hardcore players moved there when it opened. I wouldn't compare any other TLP kills to Phinny.

    Agnarr is a casual server and I think MOTM should be adjusted accordingly. I doubt ANY raiding guilds on Agnarr will kill Gorenaire during Kunark, and that's just plain bad design. LJ / RF should really have the same MOTM level as Agnarr.

    Agnarr is being punished for the actions of 2 or 3 40+ magebox armies on Ragefire. That just isn't cool anymore.