The point I was trying to make was that making a big deal about pulling, a sometimes-useful-sometimes-not ability and claiming it should be a reason to stagnate a class' dps is foolish, when there exists a class that provides similar aDPS, pet tanking, and the ability to heal. Bards can mez/charm too, so put that on the bard's side of the scale. Does it look like it's weighted so heavily to the bard side that they should be half the DPS of a beastlord? I don't think so, but that's me.
Yeah but you're not exactly acknowledging any of the points I've made in a reasonable way. Your only goal is to touch them enough so as to say you're ignorant of them so as to move your agenda forward. So it's not like this is a conversation. Pulling has importance, even though it's highly understated with a lot of content and with tanks being so powerful. You can downplay it all day and you will since your goal is to lobby and not to have a conversation, but I'm telling you point blank from experience in game that it does have some value. Does that mean that bards shouldn't get any increase in dps? I mean if you've read my posts with an open mind, obviously they should. I feel like you've just tried to find the first possible bone to pick with anyone that isn't just shouting "MAKE BARDS 5X DPS!" to the rooftops, and I'm that guy because I have a balanced view. I've never said that bards shouldn't get more dps. But if your goal is your own happiness instead of as a lobbyist, do what I've prescribed. Play a different class that can't pull for a while, like a beastlord, and in a while, you'll see what I'm talking about. But you can't see it with those blinders on. So make a beastlord and mess around a bit. I mean why not right? Based on what you say they're the best class in the universe. Good luck with your crusade. I hope you get what you want, at least for a while.
I don't think a lot of people have been screaming for a 5x buff in any serious manner. Even considering a 2-3x buff, they would still most likely be under beastlords and that would certainly seem like a fair place considering the aDPS and pulling/utility they bring. I could understand the argument of pulling and such in the past, but to be honest the evolution of the game doesn't really justify the lack of DPS for that reason any longer. Especially considering there are other classes that can pull and DPS on a equal or better footing with ease.
Bards have more utility than beastlords and rangers. Also, bards are not currently a dps class. They are asking to now compete with dps classes. It should not happen.
Remind me where saying they should be below beastlords is saying that they should compete with them? I find your argument relatively weak considering you don't seem to have a problem with those DPS classes offering/bringing aDPS and still being able to DPS. If you want to make the argument that it is a utility class, I can make the argument that they are DPS classes and shouldn't bring the utility they do - that road goes both ways.
It sounds like they are asking to do dps that is relevant according to their strong points in relationship to the amount of ADPS they bring relative to other classes. If we quantify bard sustained dps + 4 or 5 classes in the group affected by that ADPS And then we take the dps + ADPS of a ranger and beastlord and quantify that (easier said than done because of MGB and TB) Does the bards total equivalent damage added stack up in relation? Because it does not seem like it. I don't have this quantified past a knowledge of what % each class increases my personal dps, but if someone had a graph to show the actual disparity that would help. If a bards total adps + dps is far behind the other hybrids, one or the other has to be increased, DPS would be the most logical way to increase bards, because ADPS increases could further muddle the balance than it already is. It's very easy for you to wave your hand and say ADPS class need no DPD, but relative balance does seem off to me (personal opinion). The detractors curiously have not quantified bard value to disprove the presented argument.
take some time and please list your points here. List all BL, Ranger, Bard utilities. Also please rate the effectiveness of these utilities. State your reason why such utility should result in lower levels of DPS. The more accurate you are the more someone will take you seriously. Also note bards are not asking to be 1st tier DPS (Zerk/Wiz/Rog). They are asking to be competitive to 2nd Tier DPS. As it currently stands bards are the worst DPS and only the best bards have a chance to out parse the worst of any other tier DPS class. Meaning those DPS would have to do probably <50% of there capability for the best bard to top them.
Lets take your exercise further. State your reason why a ranger or a beastlord should do less damage than a berzerker, warrior, or a rogue? They all have different abilities and tools as well. Your challenge is pointless. It assumes there is a numerical reason for why classes are aligned the way they are. That simply is not true. Bards are asking for double + dps. That makes them compete on a new dps tier with other classes. Thats just no good.
Doubling bard sustained dps would make them do the DPS that real DPS classes were doing 3 years ago, sustained. Their personal dps is that bad. That might be slight hyperbole, but doubling their personal sustained today and they would still be half of Rangers/Beast lord sustained currently. Even if you doubled a bards burst same deal. They would be about half the burst of a real dps class.
Except it still wouldn't make them competitive, every class except maybe monks would still be beating them. That speaks to monks' problem as well, because we all know #MonkLivesMatter.
So compared to Rangers: Bards can selo's, slow, mez. But Rangers can punt, root, heal, tank, buff, headshot. Compared to Bsts: Bards can selo's, track, mez. Bsts can heal, buff, tank, root? and they have a pet. All 3 classes provide roughly the same ADPS for a melee, Bst and Ranger do like quadruple a Bards personal DPS. Tell me again how Bards have "more utility"?
How can a run speed buff even count anymore? Everyone run as fast as if not close to bard with mounts and such.
I don't think beast lords can root sik... They can ghetto COTH with FD and a merc though ( not as fast as bards but still reasonable).
If you really want to play a dps class that bad, roll one. If you want a bard's tool kit (Which everyone here is severely under-rating) be happy with your tool kit.
The toolkit is largely unnecessary in modern content design, outside of the adps. It's not our fault they dumbed the game down. If you have a group with a tank that's one of the 3 tanking classes and a healer that is 1 of the 3 healing classes. Mezzing/splitting/pulling are largely irrelevant, that's just how the modern game works. When you can with even group geared tanks/healers never have any fears about pulling a room of 3, 4, or even 5, and with AE dps being a valid option oftentimes. Mezzing or splitting would be a net loss of time as opposed to raw brute forcing it. Mezzing/splitting is the largest portion of the bards toolkit outside of adps (which is countered by similar effects from other classes in many cases). So take that away and all you have left is ADPS, tracking g and bard speed. If your group is melee based a beast/ranger could replace the bard and you would only lose tracking/bard speed, but with the increase in kill rate/hour you'd probably have a net gain in objective completion, even if you have to yawn a couple times running between spots.
Pulling multiples has always been game design. Where current eq differs from original is that mobs us d to assist each other. So instead of worrying about being zerged by mobs you had to worry about running out of mana, mobs healing each other being debuffed ad Naseum. Mezzing a mob wasn't always about preventing dps but stopping mobs from healing each other and slowing the dps meant something. Modern eq is lacking imagination.
As much as i wish the dev's would help bards i have given up on them actually doing it. The amount of bards playing isnt worth the time for them to invest in the game to make any reasonable improvements. The only adjustments we see are nerfs unless theres a expansion there are no upgrades. They have had years of us saying we are getting left behind and they refuse to even acknowledge there is a problem. They could give us stances very easily cut and past the war ones with some slight modifications. Increase the base effects to our proc songs for the bard only based on group members They have given adps to berserkers, wizards, rangers, beastlords, enchanters. Im sure if you over all number crunched some of these classes adps effects it would surpass a majority of bard adps.
