How do I display timestamps in my chat windows?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by moogs, Feb 1, 2017.

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  1. ProgRambo New Member

    Mrmajestykx: I admit I haven't looked into the magelo collector or the one eqresource use but I'm 99% sure without looking closer that both injects to extract their data.

    Allakhazam extracts it from the network packets directly (props guys, that's not as easy)

    I know the ShowEQ reference was just an example of the fact that just because you stay at the network layer, you can still do bad things...
    It's not automatically a indication of a approved program no matter which method of data collection you use to get to it, be it at the network layer or be it by reading the packets from inside the client. Both can be good and both can be bad.

    Bottom line is, don't be distracted by which method a program uses, be it, log file reading/injected reading or network reading.
    The only thing that matters is what you do with the extracted information. (I remember some guy that just read from the log file and used like autoit to answer tells, and that was not considered ok... So again, if we get hung up on methods where log file reading and staying outside of the process memory is the gold standard we are heading into questionable territory there as well)

    In my case sure I could have used a directx screen scraper and inserted the timestamp that way on top of the UI (overlay) but really it seems like such overkill for such a benign feature add, and being the reasonable person that I am I took a page from others that have perfectly legal feature adding methods in their program already and just load my addons using LoadLibrary. Yes like magelo, yes like eqplaynice, yes like wineq2 and yes like ISB etc...
    Nandary Griefs and Elvenphox like this.
  2. MrMajestykx Augur

    once again note, my problem was comparisons being made not your program . Something you touched on here....using a log file to automate tells...yeah thats no bueno anything that automates the game is what is against EULA. Using a log when your logged out? to scan for info or create a parse, when the game isnt even on or needed? I m sorry tho not the same thing and that is where my problem lies its nothing like some of the comparisons being made. This isnt about a gold standard, logs and viable info like that when not even in the game? just saying
  3. NameAlreadyInUse #CactusGate

    English may not be your first language, so I don't want to assume I understand what you are talking about. But, I think you are saying that, in your opinion, a program is OK to use as long as a) it only get's its information from the UI or from the log files and b) as long as it does not "alters the face, the ui or the play within the game".

    In reference to a), please point me to where you can find this spell information in your approved list of data sources:

    http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=50288
    http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=50288&source=Live

    I've never seen this info in a log file or on an in-game tooltip. So how does Zam get it without reverse engineering and scraping hidden data? (Rhetorical question).

    In reference to b), as long as there are overlays, dual monitors, etc., there will never be consistency in the UI environment across different players. I would absolutely consider my browser window (usually with a Zam page open) to be a part of my EQ user interface. And the same with Gamparse and GINA and I S Boxer. I can't imagine playing without them, and the more closely they can be integrated into the game the better it is. Hense, they have overlays or copy/paste functionality built in.

    I think you are trying to make a value judgement (is it OK?) based on technical details that all our favorite programs already use to some degree or another. Welcome to Windows, where every program is used and abused by every other program!
    Nandary Griefs and ProgRambo like this.
  4. Sancus Augur

    Spell info is just parsed from the spells_us file, which is a text file in your EQ folder. You could read the file and get the same info, though obviously the formatting (and lack of labels) makes doing so somewhat impractical.
    Koryu and NameAlreadyInUse like this.
  5. ProgRambo New Member

    MrMajestykx: I'm glad we agree. And you are right, putting methods aside, we CAN compare OUTCOME but not METHODS.

    As an example, lets put a couple of programs on a "indication of accepted programs scale", where we scale outcome from 1 to 10.
    Gamparse and Gina are probably amongst the ones with the most benign OUTCOME so they definately get a 10 on that scale.
    It just gives an indication though, because EQPlayNice also gets a 10 on the OUTCOME scale even though it is using a different METHOD to get there...

    In the case of ShowEQ and The Allakhazam item collector, both stay put at the network layer (same METHOD), but one of them would get a 1 on the outcome scale and the other a 10 so yeah, there's that.

    This thread kinda derailed into which methods where acceptable for interaction with the client instead of just looking at outcome, so I'm glad we got it back on track. Thank you NameAlreadyInUse for pointing that out as well. And thanks to the rest of the logical and critical thinking, reasonable, posters as well
    Nandary Griefs likes this.
  6. NameAlreadyInUse #CactusGate

    I "liked" your reply, because it was great new info (I recently asked about where spell info came from and was told to use the item scrapers - lol!).

    However, this file is clearly not a log file. Even though the file is in plain text, it would still be considered reverse engineering to take data from it.

    Here is the data for the same spell I linked (to Zam) in my previous post:

    Code:
    50286^Quiescent Gambit^PLAYER_1^^^^You attempt a magical gambit.^ attempts a magical gambit.^Your magical gambit ends.^50^0^0^0^1500^1500^420000^3^3^0^1023^2508^2109^-1^-1^-1^-1^1^1^1^1^-1^-1^-1^-1^0^1^0^0^6^158^4^-1^0^0^255^255^255^255^255^255^255^255^255^255^255^104^255^255^255^255^43^0^0^35^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^24^222^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^1^50286^42^61^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^3^0^0^0^7^4^0^100^0^-99^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^1^0^1^1^0^0^0^0^0^-1^16660^1^0^0^0^0^1^1^1^-1^0^0^0^5^36^-1^0^1^0^0^1^0^1^0^1^0^0^0^0^0^1|286|7605|0|100|0$2|406|50289|0|100|0$3|134|115|10|100|0$4|137|0|0|100|0$5|138|0|0|100|0$6|289|50292|0|100|0$7|141|1|0|100|0$8|142|99|0|100|0$9|144|3000|0|100|0$10|348|100|0|100|0
    
    If all the same data is actually right there in that code, it still takes reverse engineering and a 3rd-party program to display it in a usable format.
  7. mackal Augur

    Any attempt to comprehend that file is against the EULA btw.
  8. NameAlreadyInUse #CactusGate


    And here's a little tidbit from the Everquest-Rules-of-Conduct:
    I am not trying to shame or interfere with any of the great item collectors out there, but rather to shine a light on the double-standard/hippocracy that we all seem to be witnessing.
    Nandary Griefs likes this.
  9. Schadenfreude Augur

    [IMG]
  10. Sancus Augur

    The spells_us file isn't a transmission. That line describes something more akin to how raidloot has AA data. I wouldn't be surprised if it was still against the EULA, but they aren't the same thing.

    As an aside, it's times like these I miss Piestro. Relative to this mess, it was pretty clear what was ok/not ok when he was around. And this thread would be locked.
    PathToEternity and Reht like this.
  11. Reht The Dude abides...

    As an aside to your aside, he recently left Trion (few months back).....already missing him on the Rift boards too.
    Sancus likes this.
  12. MrMajestykx Augur


    Hypocrisy is the contrivance of a false appearance of virtue or goodness, while concealing real character or inclinations, especially with respect to religious and moral beliefs; hence in general sense, dissimulation, pretense, sham.

    yet blew crap at me for English lol.... please continue on your

    [IMG]
  13. NameAlreadyInUse #CactusGate

    The relevant point was that it was a violation the EULA, not whether it was done with a local file or through network sniffing. But don't let the existence of that file be a distraction from how Zam's item collector works. This is from http://lucy.allakhazam.com/collectorfaq.html:

    EDIT: On a side note, why are people trying to communicate with pictures all of a sudden? Is it caveman day? How come I didn't get a notification about Caveman Day?!
    Nandary Griefs likes this.
  14. Nudia Augur

    Worth noting that of all of the programs mentioned, the method in which they operate is fairly irrelevant for those that attach to or work with the game. The key differentiator and where any effort like this would likely need to look towards is that the allowed programs are closed-source and produced by a company that sells for profit. That's not to say there's not some grey area here (that which shall not be mentioned shares obvious ties with ISB, WinEQ2, etc.), but note that even in those cases, there's a pretty clear differentiation in what's allowed.

    I mean no offense whatsoever, but piggybacking chunks of code from TWSNBM, namely the portion mentioned a few pages back here that, at a cursory glance, is used to avoid the game's hack detection and trying to say that no, this one is totally hand-written and harmless and safe and happy is probably not going to get over that hump. If you want a closed-source program to receive the blessing to operate in EQ's memory space officially or unofficially, no matter how it does it, it probably needs to be done as a company or real entity, not a "community for white-hat EverQuest developers".

    You're working in an area that's not within the rules and promising that it's totally cool and you'll let them look at the source code once to bless it is probably not going to fly. Even moving forward, they don't have time to babysit and keep eyes on third-party tools. With ISB, WinEQ2, Magelo, etc., they have a reasonable expectation with how those programs operate and some assurance that they will continue to operate in exactly that manner.

    I'm not an EQ spokesperson, developer, or anything else, so I could be totally off, here.

    Edit: Typos. Probably missed others.
  15. Sancus Augur

    I don't really care about your point or about item collectors (which I haven't mentioned). This is what I was responding to:
    I showed you where you can find spell information, showing it's not from "hidden data," and it is also not from network transmissions (which is what the part of the RoC that you quoted referred to).

    Feel free to continue on about item collectors, or about parsing the spells_us file being against the EULA or w/e. Just be aware they are not the same thing.
  16. NameAlreadyInUse #CactusGate

    Sancus, congratulations and thank you (again) for finding and sharing the spells_us.txt file.

    However, I don't understand what you are drawing attention to? I think you may have missed the key words in the sentence:
    The file you referenced can only be used by reverse engineering, which would seem to be against MrMajestykx's criteria ("done withing game and based on data that is readily available to anyone in log file").
  17. Gidono https://everquest.allakhazam.com

    Some of the fields in the spell file are just common sense looking at them. I believe a dev with SOE a while ago shared the spell file info at some point so we could figure out most of the fields. I know Prathun gives us SPA info on spells as well so this is info they want us to know so players, 3rd party sites and 3rd party developers can figure out the information so we can share with everyone. It's up to people to use this information for their benefit. It's very helpful to the community.
    NameAlreadyInUse and Sancus like this.
  18. NameAlreadyInUse #CactusGate

    I agree with everything you said, especially that DBG relies on the 3rd-party sites (and their 3rd-party software) to help make the game more fun for everybody. In a discussion about acceptable and unacceptable, it's worth noting that all of the 3rd-party software is equally in violation of the (broad and vague) current rules.

    And also worth noting the confusion and frustration that DBG is promoting with their actions (and inactions) and by not clarifying their own stance.
  19. Fanra https://everquest.fanra.info


    Me, following this thread:


    [IMG]
  20. Vdidar Augur

    I can't believe this thread is even still alive.
    Reht, moogs, Felicite and 1 other person like this.
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