Devs what exactly is bard nitch roll now?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by flash000, Dec 4, 2016.

  1. flash000 Augur

    Before the last adjustment to dichotomic it was was pretty much accepted that bard adps roll was being maintained through mana and endurance recovery from this one song effect.

    As a adps class so many classes have jumped into adps that we now have dps classes that do a great deal more adps than bards.

    Since the patch that fixed it and the new expansion im finding it hard to validate the roll that bards are supposed to be in.The new adps aa is a one hit use none adps classes have more hit uses.



    Where exactly is the line for class balance for bards and why are we kept on the low side for all areas?

    Can the dev team please take a step back and overview bards we have been asking for years for class balance adjustments and it was always put on hold saying after other classes were re-tuned that bards would be adjusted. So many re-tunes have been done and bards have been stagnated through omission.

    In all honesty I cant see what bards really bring that would not be better supplied by other classes today.
  2. Thraine Augur

    well 1st off, your not going to get an answer from a dev, you could try praying to jesus or muhammed or something, the reply rate is about the same.

    2ndly you guys still very good adps in a raid setting ... however that doesn't change how bards are feeling about this whole thing.

    You guys are in no way actual DPS so in my opinion your ADPS should be far better than it is and since the severe nerf to your dicho im not seeing bards move forward as a class, rather you guys seem to be standing still :(

    I hope these decisions that the Devs made doesn't deter people from playing bards. Im betting that a lot of bards will be main changing or simply quitting over this .. if i was a bard i would
    Drusi and Azzurri like this.
  3. Cicelee Augur

    It's kind of funny to me. Seems like a lot of bards are unhappy with their class at the current time; however, I have never heard of a group or (especially DPS raid group) that wouldn't want a bard in their group. So the demands for a bard by other players is still very high, even though bards themselves feel they cannot contribute as much as they think they should.

    I would guess the niche of a bard is the same as it always has been- provide continual and constant ADPS to their groups via songs. With EOK it seems like pulling in zones such as Chardok and Droga is more important than in prior expansions, so a bard's ability to single pull and do adequate group crowd control is important. Bards are today, like they have always been, a Swiss army knife- jack of all trades... master of none.
  4. Knight-errant Journeyman

    Bard's nitch roll is performing this song:

    Azzurri likes this.
  5. Kaliko Augur

    The thing is bards have been stagnated and have gotten virtually no improvements to anything in over so many years. Our CC is terrible because of the song cast time on mezzes and we still get no targetted AE mez which means we have to wait for the mobs to kill us or the group before AE mez can land. When you look at tanks and enchanters who got MAJOR dps boosts and other things that made them complete wrecking machines in group or raid content and are beating classes they shouldn't in dps yeah we're jealous. Bards still have the worst solo ability and even in raid gear we're lucky to molo mobs without dying and since the group game is virtually dead in EQ this poses an issue for people looking to start in EQ as a bard because they are an especially challenging class to play at lower levels moloing. We have gotten no fancy new Discis, songs, or AA's to help our ADPS or CC in some way and they level capped lure of the siren which is complete crap now other than an occasional dark blue or old raids. Pulling isn't really relevant considering a group geared tank in this day and age can handle 3 mobs or so np.
  6. Zalamyr Augur

    They want a bard in their group because they want to top the parse. You'll do more personal dps with a bard than you will without, therefore everybody wants a bard. That doesn't mean the bards presence is actually a net positive vs a different class. When you consider actual total contribution to the raid (personal dps + adps) and compare it to adding another class to the group, it's starts getting pretty muddy if the bard is actually an upgrade.

    Bards add nothing to caster burns. They can increase crit chance and spell damage. Crit chance is moot because casters are maxed during burns already. Spell damage is moot because all casters have burn buttons better than the bard's aria.

    Bards add next to nothing to melee burns if there's a beastlord. Aria is their strongest ability for melees. To my knowledge, many classes are capping triple attack without it, and beastlords add a better flurry mod with dicho and fury. The hundred hands effects beastlords add are also better than quick time.

    Bards still are fairly effective at increasing sustained dps, but their abilities are now second rate compared to others when it comes to burns and it hurts their viability a lot. They really need some abilities that stack so they can help on burns again. Crit damage mods come to mind here.

    The caveat here is funeral dirge. That probably is still the single largest source of damage in a single button press in the game and it basically carries their viability. If they do nothing but funeral dirge, they're probably still worth the slot.


    At the end of the day, I suspect bards are still good. But it doesn't feel good to have nothing to do on burns that's useful.
  7. Minato Augur



    Fixed for you
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  8. Cicelee Augur


    Then the niche of a bard is to support other players to make them better at doing what the other players do. Whether it be tanking or doing damage, they make other players better. Which is what bards have been doing since 1999. They have never been the main tank on a dragon, or done the most damage on a ten minute fight with an avatar... they support others. That is their niche.

    I am not saying bards need help or don't need help. All I am doing is answering the question from the OP.

    As far as burns go, I do think many many many players nowadays only care about quote/unquote burns. The thing is, I am curious exactly how long each DPS class can truly do a "burn". For a magician, if you lead with Heart of Flames (approx 3 1/2 minutes long, approx 16 minute refresh) and follow that with Elemental Union (approx 2 minutes long, approx 16 minute refresh), you are getting nearly 5 1/2 minutes or so of "burns" every 16 minutes. (Note that numbers are off the top of my head, I am not in game to verify exact numbers, but they are close enough to illustrate the point). Which means that 2/3 of the time I am not burning, and would love to have a bard to help me to improve my numbers. Which, again, is the role of the bard- support.

    EDIT- I went back and re read what you wrote. I do agree that when looking at total guild DPS, in some situations and some raid events a bard's spot in a raid may be better suited for another class. And trust me I am not anti-bard or anything like that. I want everyone to feel important and useful on raids. And if bards need some raid love, then so be it.

    But when you read a title to a thread that says "What is the role of a bard", well that role has never changed. Maybe we need 30 minute long raid events, or hour long raids like VOA Triunity, to see how much influence a bard can do for players since a player cannot "burn" for thirty or sixty straight minutes.

    Which leads me to this question, one I somewhat asked earlier...

    How long does each DPS class actually "burn" for 5/10/15/20/25/30 minutes?
  9. Minato Augur

    Wait... people only burn? i was under the assumption you utilized burns in the best order to get the most out of them for the entire duration of the fight depending on strats used by guilds etc? you mean i can just blow my burns and win? i think you mean zerks and sadly its working miracles for them topping sustained also anymore but thats neither here nor there in this thread i just wanted to be a little sarcastic =P
  10. Cicelee Augur


    I don't know what you are talking about. I just chain cast mod rods on raids. All I hear from other people is burns, so /shrug
    Azzurri and Sancus like this.
  11. Sancus Augur

    I think his point was actually asking how long it takes for bard abilities to become useful, which makes sense in that many of their abilities are redundant with other short term abilities active.

    For casters, the important additions that bards give are FE/Epic for crit chance and Aria for spell focus (and swarm pet boosts for Mage/Nec). It will likely take at least 3-4 minutes into a fight for casters to need additional abilities to maintain a 100% crit chance (+/- depending on particular class and # of rangers). Figuring out the amount of time it takes for aria to boost casters is a bit more complicated, since each have different duration spell foci for themselves, but it's fair to say that its impact is generally diminished early into a fight.

    I don't think bards lack a role, but they definitely could use stronger abilities to fill that role.
  12. svann Augur

    Could a dev please fix the title of this thread? Nitch is driving me crazy.
    Dermel likes this.
  13. Warlorf Augur

    he is also looking for the word role and not roll
  14. Murphy Elder


    Yeah, but best bard is dead bard right? Isn't that the legacy of EQ. First Hate raids wiped because of bard song. /nods. true story brah.
  15. Natal Augur

    Ah, the regular whine rant.....