Raid DPS

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Caeelar, Jul 17, 2016.

  1. Caeelar Journeyman

    We have been working like crazy to get our raid DPS up. Right now, we are only pushing out around 1.5m when we should be closer to at least 4m if not more. We generally field a solid balance of classes, but despite us pushing dps and using every amp/trick we can think of to bump it, we just can't seem to get it over the 2m mark. Things we are using already: CoP, Auspice, War Cry, Bards in dps groups, enchies in caster dps groups. We field at least a couple of bards most nights, and a couple of enchies.. so our dps is largely amped. We could use one more of each, but you go have to go with what you have. The raids are typically 45+ and we usually have 3 tank/healer groups, 3 melee dps groups, and 3 caster dps groups. Mostly, we are shorter on tanks than anything else... but that should only make our dps better as long as we keep the tanks alive, which we seem to be able to do for the most part.

    So, my question is.. what are we missing? I know a lot of classes can debuff and make certain mobs vulnerable to certain kinds of damage, but I don't know what is commonly used on raids or what every class can do. Which amps are good to run together? For example, Auspice and 7th aa pretty much do the exact same thing, so it's better to run 7th when Auspice is down so you can extend your burn. That said, burning a glyph works well with auspice/7th since it increases crit amount.

    If any of you guys from super dps guilds could give me some pointers, I'd sure appreciate it.
  2. Maedhros High King

    If youre the paladin from Emarr, am I right in guessing youre still hitting TDS and some of the easier targets in TBM? It says youve beaten Wither and Decay, which is a pretty decent dps check. Lookin at your melee groups magelos, it seems like the melee weapons from TBM will really help a ton, but that takes time. It sounds like you have the classes arranged in the right spots, and your balance is perfect 3 tank, 3 melee and 3 caster groups is ideal. Simply putting the right groups together goes a long way, but the coordination of epic clicks and ADPS AA are what really starts to get the numbers climbing. Its important to know when on each even that the burns are expected, and its important that people click their things at that assigned time. If a bard or shammy misses an epic click, or clicks before the burn call and its not up for the burn part of the fight, the melee numbers are dramatically affected.
    I would recommend assigning a melee burn caller, that has a hotkey set that people can set an audio trigger for, or a gina trigger to alert them to burn or hit their epics etc.
    Coordination is critical.
    If you have any questions you can ;tell Cazic.maedhros and i will get a bit more in depth with dps ideas.
  3. Ravengloome Augur


    If people are waiting to be told to click burn abilities... thats probably 80% of the problem :p

    1) Make sure rangers are using TB and MGB auspice (if your events are taking you this long)... Keep in mind if Auspice is going COP3/4 does nothing for you, So save that to fill in the gaps
    2) Everyone should be cycling short cooldowns if the raids are longer, and if the raids are significanttly long sneaking in 2 long burn discs. Saving things for 10 minutes from now at the "burn phase" kills your DPS, especially if the refresh on the ability is 10 minutes or less.
    3) Beast lords are using TB and MGB Para and Focus paragoning people
    4) Get good Necros (3 or 4 really helps)
    5) Have all your DPSers (or atleast the ones that care) work out a rotation of discs to maximize uptime and disc'd time for expected event length
  4. RPoo Augur

    if bards and chanters are in the same groups they need to know when each other is using fierce eye and illusions of grandeur so one or the other doesn't overwrite the other during burns. Also don't overwrite illusions of grandeur with 7th. Triggers are very useful.
  5. Brohg Augur

    I think it's about the individual contribution. Doing what you can as a raid force to support folks is an important second layer of building up raid dps. If you have all 100k burning guys instead of 200k (or whatever) burning guys, the fault isn't a lack of correct buffs. Folks need to double up, and then you worry about going from 200 to 250 (or whatever). Without observing directly, it's tough to offer specific advice. It's my strong feeling nonetheless that specific advice is what's required. Some CastThisNotThat, Disc1+Disc2+Disc3, mash-button-needs-all-17-of-these sort of stuff, plus a healthy dose of Just Cast More Please, Go OOM I Dare You.
  6. Sirene_Fippy Okayest Bard

    DPS optimization is a really cool and interesting part of EQ.

    It can be difficult to identify DPS problems, but I'll point out 3 main points:
    1. Knowing how to DPS well as individuals of x class (micro)
    2. Coordinating with your group/raid (macro)
    3. Being geared (somewhat minor impact)

    If you know what you're doing, it becomes a lot easier to do well on a parse. However, DPS numbers themselves can be very misleading. If I parse well in a raid event, I might do 100k DPS (example numbers). If I do the same raid with another raid team, maybe a pickup raid, I might do 60k DPS even though I'm doing the same thing. If I do the same raid and we have 30 people vs 54, my DPS will be much lower. This seems obvious, but people often forget when comparing parses across guilds and servers. If I do 100k DPS on an event, and another bard on another server does 80k DPS on the same event, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm better at DPSing than they are. It depends on the total fight duration. As fight duration decreases, everyone's DPS increases.

    If you have a full, balanced raid with well built groups (BRD SHM BST BER X X) (ENC DRU 3x MAG or 3x NEC or 3x WIZ), use correct raid debuffs and AE discs, and plan a coordinated raid burn, you have the macro part done. If your DPS still isn't that great, the problem is within individual groups and how they coordinate ADPS, and/or with individual players and how they play their class.

    I would look at parses for a straightforward event (Vim/Vigor?) and compare members of the same class with each other. Have the higher DPS ones work together with lower DPS classmates to figure out what's causing the difference. Look at the # of hits they are making, what their DPS is and where it's coming from - DD or melee, etc. Look at spell use and see if they're using the right discs/spells at the right time. Make sure your ADPS players are cooperating with their groups and using discs properly.

    This is a bit old but hopefully still mostly correct (refresh timers have gone down for some):
    [IMG]

    For the whole raid:
    - RNG should TB Auspice, rotate that, then MGB Auspice & rotate, then raidwide CoP rotation
    - SHM should MGB Ancestral Aid
    - BER should MGB Cry of Chaos

    In a melee DPS group:
    - BRD + SHM epic should be used together every 3 minutes. When your group does a burn, you want BST to use Ruaabri's Fury, SHM to use 3rd Spire, BRD to use Quick Time, BP and 3rd Spire.

    In a caster DPS group:
    - DRU should be using Black Wolf as much as possible. ENC should use IoG on burn, ideally along with Black Wolf. If you have a bard in the group also, they should not use FE with IoG (used to stack but don't any more). Bards should use Epic, 2nd Spire, BP, Quick Time.

    ADPS debuffs vs the boss:
    - SHD should rotate T'Vyl's Resolve; when it fades for all SKs, bards should rotate Funeral Dirge (or run Funeral Dirge while T'Vyl's is up if the fight won't last that long)
    - BRD should rotate Dance of Blades for Bladewhirl debuff
    - WIZ should rotate Mana Burn
    - DRU Skin to Seedlings
    - ENC Tash + Ethereal Manipulation

    Personal discs are more specific than I know for more than a couple classes. You'd have to find a good person for that class and double check that everyone of that class is on the same page. For some classes it can be hard to tell - NEC can be difficult to parse, and BRD spell use doesn't show up in logs. In those cases just hope that they will talk to each other and be open minded.

    Disc timing is also important. If your raid has lower DPS, you can usually coordinate more than 1 burn per event. On longer raids, I disc every 10 minutes. For anything less than 10 minutes, I will discuss with my group when they want me to use ADPS discs and act accordingly. Additionally, we have a coordinated raid burn at some specific %, depending on the event. It's important that players utilize their discs as much as possible, instead of saving and only using them once.
    Geri_Petrovna, Leex and AB-Muvien like this.
  7. Thraine Augur

    I think Brohg hit the nail on the head here. You can tweak groups and MGBs forever .. but if your players dont turn on beast mode when its time to raid, then therein lies the problem.

    Do you guys have a DPS standard? that might help. also just having a parse channel or forum to post parses of events sometimes spur on some friendly dps competition .. and you can also better see the people who arent pulling their weight, then point it out to them or whatever.
  8. Belkar_OotS Augur

    Welcome to one of the biggest challenges facing mid tier raiding guilds aside from a shrinking player base. Helping your raiders realize, and put forth the effort, to improve their personal play style and playing habits.

    A few nuggets to employ outside of the good advice that has already been given: 1. Stick your best dps players with your best support players. Optimum class distribution doesn't guarantee those players will do what is necessary. A subpar beastlord who won't use fury properly or at the right times probably doesn't deserve to be in the best dps group over a monk who who is pushing. 2. Many of the good dps buffs are TGB able -aka can be cast on other groups. Ranger Scarlet Fang is a very good ability to use on pure melee classes for discs like Heel and Frenzied Stabbing. Also this can be a problem for some classes, I get black wolf and IOG randomly due to support people mistargeting.

    Also parsing is a great tool, but sucky players will refuse to embrace the fact we can tell what they are doing to make recommendations. In the end you will have to decide how you want to manage people who are happy with their status quo and will not change or improve, or can't reasonably do better given disability, computer system or Internet speeds etc.

    Right now quality dps is a huge factor in raid success. I have said it before but will continue to make the remark: good tanks and healers determine if a raid exists, but dps determines where you are in progression and your server rank.
    Vrinda likes this.
  9. shadowgod Augur

    One of the biggest reasons mid tier guilds cant beat content is because your dps listens to the idiot raid leader on when to disc. Lets face it events are easier the faster they get beat so saving your main burn for 20% is absurd when you can burn at 100% and still have it up at 20% anyway. Most events for most guilds will last over 10m anyway so why RLs want you to save 10m disc for the end doesn't make sense.
  10. Belkar_OotS Augur

    One thing I have noticed is that bards are pretty important to overall raid function. Obviously a well played main bard is awesome and a treasure lol. But, even a minimally effective alt bard is often worth the raid spot so long as they don't trigger a negative effect like an add or AE. Bards are necessary for optimal raid burns for most classes, and they are a big deal for sustained mana regeneration and mana draining events, with their rallying cry and dichotomy song. Some classes have fairly serious mana issues like magicians, and rangers and the mana regeneration allows them to go full force on longer events.
  11. shadowgod Augur

    Mages should never have a bard unless you literally have too many bards. I'm not bashing people who play mages but the class right now is not capable of putting up great numbers. Put the bard with zerkers/rogues or wizards/necros first. Also your rangers should be in a melee group anyway so they would have a bard for mana regen. Beastlords can be in any group they can TGB RF and DF to the main melee dps group.
  12. Maedhros High King

    If you think people clicking their burns at random without coordinating with their ADPS support will lead to better dps, then by all means give that a try! ;)

    While its easy to assume that the raid leaders in mid tier guilds are idiots because they are not leading a top tier guild, its is a pretty narrow minded and flat out wrong. There are plenty of good raid leaders in lower guilds that are doing good work and have good ideas but sometimes the member base doesnt have the talent to pull off the strats. Likewise there are often way too many raid leaders in high end guilds that are terrible at it, but the strength of the member base is so high that it carries the guild through the bad leadership by sheer force. Recognizing these things will help you assess things a bit more rationally.
    I will agree that a raid leader not knowing the time of burn discs, and waiting 15 mins to call burns for the first time is really dumb. Lets assume that any guild with a raid leader that bad would call for a replacement rather than suffer through that incompetence.

    This is also wrong and very narrow minded. An elite magician with a bard will post better numbers than a crappy played necro or wizard all day. Putting the good players, regardless of class with the strong ADPS will serve you far better than churning out group make ups that only take the classes into consideration.
    Kaley_D'vere and Vdidar like this.
  13. Leex Pewpewer


    You should tell your Mages to visit Getgood.com
    Kaley_D'vere, Reht and Vdidar like this.
  14. Ravengloome Augur

    I wasn't saying they should click at random but they had better be cycling or they are leaving damage on the table and off the combine.

    That's a big thing that separates a great dps group from a mediocre one. Player communication, to,maximize uptime of abilities in sync with ADPS.

    The burn parse while cute doesn't mean much,if you did 1/3 of your sustainable dps just place high on there.

    The difference can be that huge for alot of classes. Let alone if everyone is playing efficiently time starts to fall off the combined total which thusly raises everyone's median dps.

    When I have raided on dps classes I've gotten beat on burns, but usually would be the highest in my class on the nightly combine sometimes by a very significant margin.

    Total damage is directly equate able let to your total value
    Igniz, Sancus and Kobrah like this.
  15. Vdidar Augur

    It's all about the combine not the burst. I like wither and decay because it gives you an excellent opportunity to learn adps coordination provided the people involved can handle it.
    Igniz, Sheex and Sancus like this.
  16. Schadenfreude Augur

    Put your best people in groups first. If you only have one Shaman and one Bard that is on top of their aDPS game then make them a fixture in your #1 melee group, if you have a Beastlord/Monk/Ranger who consistently out-performs Rogues or Zerkers then give them the best aDPS you can and when the 'pure' DPS classes complain tell them the groups are being done on merit and they need to improve.

    If you only have one or two Bards then you had better make damn sure they are in your best melee/hybrid groups. Being 'nice' and 'fair' to everyone is all very well when you have everything on farm. You'll probably get casters asking for Bards but if they have a Druid and and Enchanter already then just say no.

    Find out if people are using Glyphs and potions, if they aren't prepared to grind out the AAs for Glyphs and source potions then either encourage them to do so or put them in groups with the other members of Team Slack who are only prepared to put in the bare minimum effort. You might be surprised that some people who 'show up a lot' put in very little effort outwith raids.

    If you have a tank who has garbage for aggro and/or is super slow on the pickup then put them at the end of the tank line. As above no one 'deserves' a turn at tanking until everything is on farm. A freshly rezzed melee DPS who died due to poor quality aggro is all but useless for several minutes.
  17. shadowgod Augur


    No it is not wrong because I'm assuming equal skill. If you see a mage beating a necro/wizard they should go play a different game any idiot can play a wizard. I was speaking under ideal situations. You should never give mages a bard if your wizards/necros don't suck. If you're in a mid tier guild then you have to pick out who the better players are and hope they can carry you, but under ideal situations mages cannot beat a good necro/wizard I don't get if its the best mage ever he aint beating a good wizard.
  18. Behelit Augur


    ......

    ..........


    unless you're talking about a Sangheili playing EQ, those words don't belong together. ever.
    Bahdah likes this.
  19. Sancus Augur

    People make this mistake quite often. Their final DPS is irrelevant. If a Mage gains 30k DPS from a bard and does 100k DPS and a Wizard gains 15k and does 130k for the event, the bard is better off with the Mage (and those numbers are completely made up and are in no way even proportionally accurate). Mages actually get quite a bit out of the melee ADPS bards have, which Wizards don't benefit from at all. Factoring in mana regen makes it a much more difficult comparison since the benefit of that will vary from event to event, but Mages have an edge IMO.

    I've seen this mentality in past guilds lead to Necros recieving Black Wolf over Mages because the Necros had higher overall DPS, which, while a more extreme example, clearly makes no sense.

    It's likely a moot point though, since good Mages are much rarer than good Wizards in mid tier guilds.
    Kaley_D'vere, Brohg, Igniz and 5 others like this.
  20. Caeelar Journeyman

    Thanks for all the feedback guys, this is going to be super helpful. I see a few things we need to incorporate that will help, and once we have all the group/raid amping fixed I can start pulling aside low performers and work with them. I really appreciate all the help!