New players - pick a knight if you aren't a boxer

What problem? I see nothing wrong, 2hander stance probably the best thing thats happened in years.

Sheex we are still nowhere near you in ae aggro unless its 5+ non mezzed npcs that we can survive being hit on by. Wade works for the very specific job it was designed for - to ae gather a single wave while fortitude is up on wk1. I asked for this specifically for that purpose. And I have seen every single warrior except maybe 1 say they seen knights needed stuff just not an exact copy and instead of a rational conversation they were bashed and the entire knight community tried to act like it was no big deal. After all that do you think most of us care if you can tank a grey con mob after this? I was sending pms to get you guys boosts over a year ago would I do that after all of this ? No.

He's speaking of defensive prof, specifically.

Yep no problem there either IDK

I'm just here so I won't get fined

I just can't abide by the idea that anyone thinks an always on 30% mitigation gap is in any way balanced. And clearly it wasn't or the devs would have left it alone, which they did not. Nor can i abide by the fact that Warriors were completely fine with the advantage comfortable in their warm overpowered bed of summer flowers until knights got a copy of it. Then all of a sudden we should remove it just to spite knights and recreate the gap some other way. It was bad for warriors it was bad for the game and it is bad for Knights. The only way it is ok for the game is if all tanks share it in some reasonable capacity and even then it creates a void for all non tanks.

Tanking is shared. The main tools for tanking should be shared. They don't have to be equal but they don't have to have a ridiculous gap either. Everyone is trying to keep their cookie at this point. Redesign the game? No. But let's not pretend it was balanced before knight stances. I said early on in this thread that my game play remains unaffected they could remove it from Knights entirely and I wouldn't notice. I don't play the same way I used to. But I can acknowledge the problem.

Simply dp and our discs should not stack it is a glaring oversight. If dp is meant to fill the gap of non disc tanking, which I believe it was meant to do with 100% uptime. But nerfing it for Knights doesn't bring that back into balance. Nerfing the stacking does. That recreates the ls > guardian scenario.

Fixing war abilities outside of ls resolves the rest. That is a dev problem they have been to obtuse to address. Nttb shouldn't have been nerfed the way it was. It could have been done differently and more effectively.

I don't agree with any of this. As it did not address any of the real balance issues. It did not effect sk raid utility and reavers bargain for the price still made sk > paladin in tanking. Which already had the glaring issue of vod [non disc] stacking with defensive disc and their epic making them more resilient all things considered from a pure passive cast and forget perspective. Nor did it address war lack of utility and downward scaling tank abilities.

Everything is washed outside of mantle/armor stacking. Square 1 anyone?

Lowering it 10 - 15% to account for self healing and the % stuff stacks to fixes both problems at the same time shiftie.

We really don't need much utility boosting potions and raising in combat regen would be about the only thing to add to us Pain doesn't hurt could use the self curing that no time to bleed had and we would be in a good spot and then looking at all 3 tanks dps.

I think most warriors agree that the 15% advantage pre-stances is the ideal gap.

However, many knights in this thread have stated anything over 5% would be broken.

With that being said, "if" DP is nerfed I have NP with Mantle/Armor/Carapace being transferred to mitigation if that's what knights would want. As 24/7 absorb these days does dilute the benefit of those discs.

Given how vastly superior paladin utility is, maybe having SKs be the clear #2 vs high DPS single mobs is ideal for knight balance.

I agree with you and part of me wonders if in some sick, twisted way, this is their justification for Paladin offensives stacking so well while SKs don't - it would be just the kind of screwed up thought process I'd suspect from DBG at this point.

15% is too much of a difference first off because this is always on mitigation by a simple equipment setup, which leads to npc design issues. Secondly, 15% is just a number - the value of that number is what matters. When it comes to mitigation, just 5% is a huge value. I agree with Shiftie that the stacking is a more viable target but even with that, mantle and carapace are damage capped and I have yet to supplant a Warrior with Mantle & Reaver's Bargin running - it sounds good on paper, but in practice, it isn't there.

• Bring back Phalanx of One
• Return sustainability to NTTB/PDH
• Rebuild Brace for Impact
• Improve DW DPS so it's ahead of 2H
• Bump DW mitigation to match DP
• Remove penalties from proficiencies
• Shift DI1-2 hits to zero damage
• Significantly boost HP
• Build on AC advantages
• Fix Phantom Aggressor
• Create activated skill attack abilities
• Significantly boost mitigation recourse of Insult line
• Retune Bulwark abilities toward relevance
• Add a "group-friendly" ability between PDH and Bulwark
• Address soloing capabilities

Then you're one of the couple of trolls Sheex is talking about. Nobody with any reasonable rationale thinks DP is good for the game.

I'm not sure if I can agree with DW being equal to DP in terms of mitigation and then it being equal to 2H in terms of dps. It would have to be one or the other, imo.

If proficiencies are here to stay, the negatives need to be removed. Ideally I'd want to go back to Phalanx (I'm curious how many knights were unaware that we held a 15% mitigation advantage with it) but I don't see that happening.

Our HP is fine, especially under temporary buffs like tenacity, dichotomic, bear, RG, IC, etc.

Phalanx needs to be fixed, again. Every time they play around with pets this becomes broken. It's quite frustrating that our best aggro ability is broken to the point of where it could be a detriment.

I agree with trix that you already have hp advantage when needed and always have more than any other class with the same gear/buffs.

I like that warriors have an AC advantage, but you have to be careful because if you push the ac to much you get to the pet problem and then knights wouldn't be able to tank again because they would ramp up mob atk values to much and make knights take to many higher DI hits, and everyone else would get max hit almost all the time.

I personally never had an issue with phalanx being 10% + di-1 (innate) all the time because when it was that way our self healing over time pretty much matched that mitigation so it made it to where we could all tank. I did have an issue with it stacking with LS, and that would have to be fixed if it came back, because that is what really started to push knights down, and even hurt warriors when not under LS because the difference was so large.

I see one of the main issue now being how hard mobs hit for undisc'd that 10% can be 6-8k per hit difference, and if you were to go back to 36% unholy/holy vs 60% LS then on a 80k hitter each hit has the potential to go from 32k (war 60%) to 51200 (36 unholy) with war already having ac and hp advantage that is a huge huge difference. that's not including 10% vie for each that would lower it down more.

Then outside of that you look at 15% + 10% vie for warrior + lower DI's on average for stout always on, vs 1 min of mantle and 1-2 min of carapace and 2 min of RB for sk, which SK would combine with mantle and carapace to survive, then the advantages are closer but we would all be getting wrecked by the damage of the mobs at that point, so it would go back to LS rotations only.

DP has really messed the game up IMHO and either they need to take it out for all, or figure out something for warriors to give them flavor again.

Pretty sure he was counting melee mitigation and absorb as different abilities. Historically, absorb has been more available to other classes, while melee mitigation, decrease hit damage (ie Anguish BP), and threshold absorb were usually warrior abilities.

I could care less what form of "take less damage" knight discs take. But it's pretty clear if they're going to stay as absorb, the % needs to be heavily nerfed which may make knights mad since it wouldn't be much of an upgrade over shining. I think that "if" DP is nerfed, the discs could be transferred to mitigation.

Using warriors having a 15% advantage as a benchmark, and assuming 10% shining as default on the abosrb side, that could look like:

15% DP + 5% innate

36%-40% Guardian + 5% innate

30%-35% Melee mitigation Mantle + 5% innate

20% melee mitigation armor/carapace + 5% innate

I would boost HP for all three tanks.

I would be behind that

The funny thing is that the whole mess with Proficiencies was originally out of response to the Warrior community's desire to make Dual Wield viable again - and that's the one thing it's consistently failed to deliver on. If Knights are keeping proficiencies, I see no reason to deny Warriors the system's best benefits by fulfilling its core purpose and giving DW its day in the sun again.


There are multiple valid reasons to make DW our best DPS stance. It requires two weapons and augments, there's precedence for DW to surpass 2H outside the Warrior class, it's a unique and iconic Warrior stance and it maximizes swing/proc agro (I'll add a boost to Infused by Rage to the above list - not enough parity with Strike of Ire)

DW proficiency has failed over and over because its current implementation is conceptually flawed - a "meh" stance provides no unique advantages, as such there's no ideal situation to use it. Defensively, returning a "default" stance with mitigation equivalence and an uncompromising DPS advantage is what it will take to put DW back on the map for Warriors. Until that happens, the Proficiency system is doomed to be a complete and utter failure that has accomplished nothing but destroying any semblance of balance in EQ.

But keep in mind - it doesn't make 1H/2H useless. Shield AC and block % will mandate 1H+S against the hardest mobs. 2H retains the highest riposte/rampage damage. Both will be used as they have their situations where they are ideal. And with Proficiencies becoming a "tank" ability (not just Warrior specific) I don't think you'll find Knights having a problem defending the desire for, or regularly utilizing 2H prof.

This is pretty much what I said about 40 pages ago.

I believe 10% difference between the total of DP&KS would be good. Any more then this amount and I would only support it with the adjusting of knight discs / dicho lines. Knights should not be required to run discs just to match the mitigation on a warrior just equiping a shield. I believe in the 75:100 knight:war ratio; cutting the DP&KS combo 15% or more causes this ratio to get out of balance quickly when other things such as discs are not adjusted (via duration, limits, refresh time, stacking).

With a 20+5 combo, I could even see adjusting the mantle mitigation down to 30% instead of the current 35% if that would be a sticking point with warriors. Again, some minor adjusting would be needed; like pal dicho adjustment or maybe an adjustment for protective proc spell.

Currently, mitigation for a knight is like going down stairs while warriors stay on a level with only one step down. Yes.... Knights start off higher with their best mitigation but we take that step down earlier then warriors and can not step back up for a longer time. When both knights and war are out of stuff.. they are very close to being equal; which is not right either. 20% DP and 5% KS fits really nice with the 75:100 ratio imo.

I would be alright with this, depending on what the 'clear #2' represents. I would still like a redo of the paladin dicho spell in exchange (hint hint... wink wink devs... that problem will not go away).

The other thing to keep in mind is what kind of changes the SK dots will get once they are revamped. I'm all for keeping SK damage as the highest of the tanks fyi.

It certainly would play the part. There were complaints that shields weren't useful enough and then when folks learned about shield AC, complaints that aggro was too hard to hold with a shield - enter SS & ISS, which was targeted to improve aggro but had the nice side effect of increasing S+B dps (particularly ISS). That poor implementation is what has made DW go by the wayside, not proficiencies; they merely made it worse. If you want to make DW meaningful again, there are two ways to do it - change ISS to keep the aggro but lose the dps or increase the gains in dps on both DW & 2her proficiencies. Given the state of tank dps, the latter would make more sense. Being a true middle ground in mitigation and dps wouldn't make DW 'meh' but rather the preferred, default method it should be.

I was talking about the time prior to knights getting DP&KS; what I'm not doing is playing the way-back-game and discussing an era a long long time ago. I'm sticking to the era which was just a couple months ago.

I'm not sure how you figure a mantle disc (at 35% mitigation by description) would 'roflstomp' anything a warrior had when warriors were running 30% on DP +5% innate and +10% on vie (all without a disc). Maybe you are talking about that long ago era? Again... why should a knight class have to run their best disc in order to match what was 'virtually' innate for the warrior using a shield (which was in place just a few months ago)?

Again, see above; I said 'until the recent addition of DP&KS. I'm not sure how you are making this comparison? Are you saying when war LS was down, knights were superior in mitigation at that time? Even if you considered guardian ... that was only a total of 35+10 while war was at 30+10+5... and this --was-- knight best combo which equaled warriors with a shield. So... after warriors used their 3 mins of LS, only then could knights using a disc would equal an shield-equiped warrior. I'm not sure where 'superior' becomes evident from those results. Sure... we have a repel line.. but warriors have other things (clickies, AA, tomes) which seem to be forgotten about in your comparisons.

Ok.. so after 3 mins, but no longer then 7 minutes while LS was waiting to refresh.. oh wait.. no longer then 2 mins (since our disc didn't run for 7 mins) knights were on par with warriors? Sure.. again.. your comparing having spent the warrior disc with not having spent the knight disc? I don't get it; how is that apples to apples.

Sure, I will not disregard knight healing power completely during raids. But that does not mean you, as a warrior, understand knight healing accurately; so warriors would not be the class to view knight raid healing potential fairly either.

I was speaking before DP existed. Anything a knight had decimated what a warrior had pre-DP for any class. Look at the abilities that warriors had before DP and then look at what a knight had. The comparison wasn't even close (in favor of knights) in terms of raw mitigation.

Outside of LS our best mitigation ability was our CoA BP at 15% mitigation. Your best was/is mantle at 35%. Phalanx brought us to 25%. Shining brought us to 35%. So we needed to rely on an outside class to get us up to where knights were. Then you have to remember that CoA lasts for less than 45 seconds. After that our best was 14%, Warlord's Bravery. Before DP was introduced, Bravery lasted no more than 30 seconds. Within a minute and 15 seconds our best two raw mitigation abilities disappeared. One of which wouldn't be used for another 2 raid events later because it had a 51 minute cooldown (<--lol). After that we had Diplomatic papers, NTTB (which wasn't used in raids), and HP/AC buffs.

The only problem with knight abilities was their lack of stacking with Vie. But a one vs one comparison of abilities, knights ran circles around warriors.

And now you throw DP into the mix and the situation is right back where we started, if not worse because DP stacks with your mantle/carapace plus we lost our 5% innate advantage. So we don't have any innate advantage, we don't have the advantage of phalanx anymore because it was merged with DP. In a way, knights got our class innate, half of phalanx and full version of DP all in one patch.

You have 30% DP 35% mantle for 65%. Repel extrapolated gives a bonus of anywhere from 4-7.5% mitigation during a fight so with mantle running you're sitting at 30% DP and 40% mantle. A warrior with DP and Bravery is hitting 45%. Add Shining and he's at 55%. A warrior with DP and Dichotomic is worse than DP + mantle. It would overmatch mantle if we stacked another ability with Dichotomic.

The only thing that kept us close was our AC/HP superiority which was partially negated by knight combat self-healing. The only thing that keeps us above now is some added abilities along with the raw AC/HP superiority. That's fine in raids, but then warriors need better backwards scaling abilities because knights are completely rule that area.

If the devs want class balance and tank interchangeability, that's fine. But they added abilities to knights without any repercussions to what it would do. Now they need to retune warrior abilities because the balanced is more skewed to knight favor more than any time in the game over the last 5 yeras or so that I've been back since my long break.