Bard Power!

Where do I get this songs? Seems I miss something big...

And I don't think bard needs a buff up. We are about right.

You get those spells in Luclin. The point though is that the devs saw that bards needed a greater role when it came to CC than Original/Kunark/Velious allowed them, which is why they implemented these songs for you. Ultimately they are the ones that decided that you needed a buff up.

Here is the old Thott website on the "jack of all trades" argument.

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/joat.php

His other posts on Bards can be found in the links to the left. I think that stuff is mostly around luclin era. with some sooner and some later.

I am very well aware that bards can be good at certain levels and there is absolutely no question that they are much desired in raids. Those are no brainers.
I am just saying there are gaps in the bard's abilities that were fixed later in the game that could be addressed.
I am also saying there were nerfs that were made to the bard much later than classic and kunark that would be good quality of life improvements currently to fill in those gaps.

I am the first to say bards are still decent in groups but, I would rather have a monk puller in most situations and I would rather have an enchanter CC/charm in ALL situations.

BRD isn't filling any role besides those Pulling or CC in a group environment and in virtually all high level camps, the ability to pull off these roles is gimped very badly.

You could say that about druids too. Probably other classes. In Kunark, druids' and shamans' best direct heal is Superior Healing, a 600 hp heal, which they get at level 51. Clerics get that at level 30. Hell, even paladins get it at 57.

In Velious, druids get Nature's Touch, a much better heal at 60, and druids and shamans both get Chloroblast at 55. These address the gap. I remember when this was first addressed - it was a mid expansion re-evaluation of a lot of classes. But it happened mid-velious, so this spell is forever added at Velious for progression servers, even though the disparity exists earlier on. A lot of the changes that went in with that patch are still applied, though - such as rangers getting Skin Like Nature at level 59. I found a link to the patch notes at the time, if you're interested:
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5219

Similarly, with druids and shamans getting a 90% rez in a much much later expansion.

I'm sure there are other classes with similar issues - spells/songs added later on to address a balance issue at the time, which are now bound to a particular expansion on progression servers, even though the balance issue applied before that. Bards are not the only class that applies to.

Just to be honest, I am very happy with the tools we currently have. I would say I like a buff but that's not really necessary.

Yeah and in classic only having greater heal on druid/shaman is very painful! I can agree with that.

Druid got the short end of the stick in group content and even raid content for a very extended period of time in EQ. Druid can become an effective DPS in chardok by using charm although most druids just don't.

Shaman on the other hand shines extremely well in Kunark. Believe it or not but over and hour parse verses a wizard, a shaman should be able to easily out DPS a wiz (mostly due to cannibalize). They heal fairly well but coupled with the slow, they do fine.

What level are you at so far Soon?

I think where bards begin to start to show weakness is at 55+ when you move to camps higher level than the king camp like juggs, foreman, and Kennels.

Even at king you can easily find yourself with all 54+ mobs. For example you regularly come across healers which are too high to be stunned by the cleric, meaning lvl 56+. Good luck with a ghetto group dealing with a couple of those at once.

And at all such camps where bards may or may not be able to mez some subset of the mobs, a group witha bard and no chanter is just a different incarnation of a ghetto group. Others are better. Replace the bard in that group with another tank, or another healer, or another dps and just eat that light blue add for lunch. Rather than the bard coming along and heroically tying up the weakest add, other also have the ability to do things like actually get that high level add off the cleric.

Also bards had the same problem in classic endgame with a mez that went up to 45. Though the charm aggro changes were a really nice benefit here since it allowed them to basically tie up two mobs a while.

And in planes raids where CC is needed the level limit comes up again too. Bees in sky come to mind as well as those horses.

Calling bards CC is like calling rangers a tank. Yeah they can do it in easy places and against easy mobs. Look how no one cares.

I love when people complain about the weakness of their class when ignore their strengths.

"It's not fair that chanters can mez higher level mobs and it lasts longer"

Ignores that their mez can be cast while moving and doesn't cost mana.

Going to make some points here based on my opinion. I play a bard on TLP mid 50's. I will say lack of mez based on mob level check and cast time of mez CC is pretty sub-par. Fact: If I am in a 55+ camp IE. Juggs/Shrooms in OS there has to be either an ENC or Shaman in the group with me. I can pull pretty well but there are always going to be adds/respawns that have to be dealt with or it will wipe the group.

If I am in a lower level group like Disco or Chef then CC is fine. I can hold down multiple mobs while charming another with little issues other than early charm breaks or song resist.

However it seems sort of silly to give one class so many tools ( ENC ) dealing with CC and capable of having best DPS in group at the same time while making a Bard look so lack luster. Don't get me wrong I think ENC class is great and is really powerful while being hard to play and manage without dieing all the time. Personally I think they are setup perfectly as a class. It WOULD be nice though if bards had access to their higher level mez spells now instead of later. I am not asking for any major buffs or changes to the class just spell access to make them a bit more appealing as primary or off CC while still leaving ENC as preferred CC/DPS as deserved.

Anyway, I really enjoy the class and have settled into my roll as group puller. It is actually quite fun to get to learn the layout of zones and where things spawn. Work on single target pulling, etc.

Agreed. But keep in mind we have to stop all songs and focus CC. Then restart songs and continue to stop/start/re-CC. If there are 3+mobs all bets are off as all songs are stopped while we tab cycle through. Meanwhile that DarkBlue Enc charm pet is still out dps'ing the entire group.

yeah that's really useful when it won't land on the mobs because because of level restrictions. But hey trade-off right? Of course a chanter can fail to mez things while moving and use zero mana doing it too.

Enchanters are easily the most broadly powerful class in a group right now. Wanting to be equal to enchanters is also wanting to be the most powerful class right now. Do try to keep that in mind. Your class being inferior to an enchanter is not really a big deal - we're all kinda underpowered compared to enchanters.

They should probably buff bard mezzing (eg luclin spells coming early) certainly but let's not go overboard on stuff like a mana free charm. That kind of irrational grasping request can get the request ignored and hurt the chances of a good change happening due to its association.

I am not fighting to make bard even close to equal to enchanters though. I am fighting to make bard a viable CC class or viable charm pet class. Either one of those roles would be extremely helpful in the upper end of the game.

I think enchanters are overpowered compared to other classes and there is no way I would expect to even come close. Enchanters can charm while CCing 10 mobs while at the same time their charm pet tanks for the group. This is mind blowing what they can do and, as I have been stating, I am not even expecting to be close to this! I would just like to be more viable in a group environment.

I am asking for a mez that goes up to 57 that can mez juggs and other high level camps.

Bard mez is much worse than enchanter mez. A bard can hold down 4 mobs at once Maximum but it is sketchy. 3 mobs at once is safe. When locking down 3-4 mobs it requires you to switch targets every 3.5 seconds to refresh mez on mobs and it requires you to keep track of the order you mezzed the mobs in. This mez isn't nearly as good as enchanter mez and I am fine with that.

In regards to charm, if I remember right you couldn't play other songs while you had charm on a pet in classic but rather you had to keep your charm song going. Even though there is a low risk of charm breaking, it means a bard is pretty much stuck with just basically being a charm pet as a DPS.

I am only asking for one of these two abilities though. Each ability alone is still much worse than what an enchanter can do.

To be remotely "equal" to chanters bards would need a whole lot more boosting to their CC ability than what has been asked for. And a freaking doubling of both their slow and haste.

Bards' current position is that of a utility class that cannot provide worthwhile utility for a huge chunk of the high end of the game. (not a "jack of all trades" class, by the way, they cannot sit in as healer nor tank nor dps roles, those are the most important "trades")

A supposed tank class or DPS class who can't do their thing in the high level groups spots would be in the same position. And as the OP noted, plenty other classes got buffed to deal with this, casters got their spells increased, knights got serious defense boosts, warriors got that taunt thing plus out of era augs. They are enjoying that now. Bards are in kind of an unusual position with nerfs that came much later (swarm kiting nerf wasnt until Loy I believe) but not improvements that came even slightly later.

Now I'm personally not demanding rebalancing or anything, I'm willing to wait for bard improvements when they finally come and play other classes during their prime in Kunark. But I just have to argue when I see people claiming bards are gods because hey raids and groups that already got all the other real necessities (including at least one shaman and/or chanter) would now be happy to fit bards in some remaining slots they might have.

Due to the way Bards songs stack, Bards are much more valuable on raids. To be equal to chanters on in groups as still good on raids would be . Top 3 group classes Chanter, Cleric and Bard in that order Top 3 raid classes Cleric, Warrior and Bard in that order. Bards have it pretty well.

Just hit 56 at Jugg. I have done Kennels, King, Jugg. I never had any problem chain pulling singles. CC? Yes, we may not mez the mobs (You can mez most of the mobs in kennel) . But you can use your AOE slow to semi-mez the seldom adds, that song is very useful. If you have any questions, you may send me a tell in game.

Oh soon, I am well aware how we can pull. I am very aware of our AOE krappy slow.
I have been 60 since day 4.

I also know the disappointing shortcomings. If we just had a higher mez we could make a ghetto replacement for an enchanter when other groups are hogging 3 enchanters. Gives groups more options.

A group hogging 3 enchanters will go for a 4th enchanter, not a bard even fine-tuned as you said. It is not bard being underpowered, it's the enchanter being OP.

You are aware I am just mostly asking for the ability to CC in camps so groups don't have to necessarily get an enchanter every time.