Bard Power!

Bards need some minor tweaks now that swarm kiting is just not a thing anymore.

I have been severely disappoint on my bard with how lackluster they are in a group setting and now solo is just not a thing anymore. The bard as it stands right now in a group setting is just a puller that can't feign. I am ok with the pulling though but this is pretty much all they can add at some levels and camps.

I think to make bard more of a valuable class outside of raids, one of a few things need to happen. Any single thing would improve live so much!

1. Adjust the level of mobs you can mez. At level 50 you can only mez things up to level 45 meaning any high level camps, you just can't mez in.... For trying to get up to 60, you can only mez up to 55 meaning Juggs and higher level chardok camps are out of the question for CC.

2. Make charm viable. The charm lasts so short that it is still not as powerful as ench/nec/druid charm but when a bard runs out of mana, that's it for charms. Make mana regen work on bards or make charm 0 mana. This would make bard an actual desired DPS class in a group but it has its risk!

3. Bring swarm kiting back. Who needs groups anyways?

I am well aware that bards are a great class in raids but in a higher level group setting they just don't bring a whole lot to the table compared to an enchanter or some other classes.

The really good thing about either the charm change or the mez change is it gives groups the option to chose which CC they want to pick up. Right now if you want CC there aren't many options.

If I remember right, Swarm kiting was in classic for a long long time + bard charm mana was not an issue in classic so a change to either of these wouldn't make the classic experience any different than it was back than! The mez would be different but that hasn't stopped other quality of life things like Translocates.

no, bards are already obscenely powerful in the hands of a competent player.

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/bard-rest.230671/#post-3397685

Coming from a bard veteran since 1999, reroll until at least Luclin or more preferably PoP.

I have played bards on every and live server I've ever tried both PvE and PvP. I have been told by several people that I'm one of the better if not best bard they've played with.

What have I done since on Phinny? Rerolled a necro due to my disgust in the current bard situation (this was after clenching my teeth till Lvl 40 in classic.)

If you take the King of Solo EQ and nerf Solo EQ into the ground, you are left with a class that misses the mark beyond comparison. Yes, bards were meant to ALSO be support and they rock as support, but for those bards who loved being self-efficient, this server isn't for you.

-Lvl 27 charm was PERMA if left running on live.
-Max wind instrument fizzle rate is stupid; causing you to fizzle and blow 60 mana per fizzle.
-Bard charm duration was one of the few charms that I had never seen break early before Phinny. Here you can burn 60 mana on a 5 second charm on a blue mob. Note, the 27 charm (18 seconds) pretty much seems max duration but 39 is broken.
-Bard swarming removed.
-DOT dmg is NOT in era with current spell code. Wiz/Mage nukes are hitting x3 the amount as classic yet bard dmg has received 0 compensation.
-Mob CC isn't easily resistable, resulting in a dead bard. This includes HT. Mob HT was easily resistant with good MR on live. GL pulling zones with SK mobs as a bard facing a double HT.
-Sneak pulling isn't functioning (HUGE)
-40 mez isn't in game. Unable to be a true CC for at least 8 levels (45-53)

TLDR; reroll. The poster above me obviously doesn't know the bard class.

I have a lvl 60 bard on Phinnie, although I'm fairly new to the bard class itself.

I can tell you that yes, the charm and mezz limits do sort of suck. That being said, in every camp except Juggs/Kennels, you can almost always mezz at least 1 of the mobs you pull because there's always lower level mobs sprinkled in. Additionally, while you don't have FD or Fade yet, you can pacify mobs. You can also snare mobs, which lets you stagger how fast your pulls arrive, or even kite around an add (which I've done at juggs). You have AE slow as well, this is incredibly powerful in itself.

Lastly, bards are incredibly useful in groups other than pulling & CC. You can do so many things - no, you're not the best at them - but no other class has the flexibility of our song library combined with the unique mechanics of songs themselves.

Bards in this era don't have Fade, and you don't get your first higher level mezz until what, the single target Ancient song that lets you mezz up to 59? They also don't have swarm kiting/P99 tricks. Still a great class even if they're not OMGWTF like they are in PoP.

If it's not a good fit, play another class, but I don't think theres anything wrong with bards.

I played a disciple on vanguard. On one of the few raid mobs(if 18 people is a raid) I remember being the number 2 healer on the chain, and finishing number 3 in DPS. About a week later, they completely "revamped" the class. I was furious, and quit the game. Thinking about it now, they probably should have revamped the class.

Forgive me if I am not showing any pity since you can no longer clear an entire zone of blue and light blue mobs. Or single pull any mob, any time. They still run fast as , and still provide a myriad of utilities to any group. They can also solo. It's just that soloing isn't meant to be the best xp on the server, and for every class, it isn't. Well done DBGs.

Shrug no need to pity me all I was stating is that bards are nowhere near or remotely resemble a bard from live besides selos.

What good is "running fast af," when I can't do much to the npc?

Your definition from a game no where near relevant is not only out of place but not a good comparison. You explained what seems like a class balance/nerf.

What I explained was the major tweaking of a class. When you no longer recognize a class you've played and excelled at for 17 years on and off (since I was just a kid,) it's time to go elsewhere whether that's with a new class or a new game.

Even a Lvl 60 bard posted in this thread and said they are great at snaring mobs and mezing sub 53 mobs (as a Lvl 60???) he also said their Lvl 8 pacify works great.

This is from a 60 bard LOL.

Per this post you can play haste that doesn't stack with other haste buffs until V3 Haste, snare mobs (same as dru, rng, sk, nec, inny Clr,) and pacify mobs. According to a 60 bard, mez/charm suck and that's coming from some one who by 60 most likely got decent CHA.

Seriously the only perk are raid resists, which is very sad. Melody bot ftw

Bards can fill just about any role well, without being the best at it.

They can mez and charm, just not as well as an enchanter.
They can provide regeneration for the groups in terms of mana and health, just not quite as well as other classes.
They DO provide some of the best melee buffs in the game. Solid haste, solid stat buffs, just not quite as high of a haste as an enchanter of equal level, and not quite the stats of a shaman.
Their dots with a drum are decent as well, but dont expect them to do the dps of a necro.
They are the best group puller in the game hands down, monks dont have anything on a bard. Once they get fade, they become better than monks at raid pulling as well.

Allow them to do one or a few of these things better or as well as other classes and there is no reason to get one of those classes over a bard.

As it stands now I LOVE to have a bard in my group, the utility they bring is unmatched and if they are a competent puller its even better.

Bard fade pulling got nerfed recently on live. Do not expect to do the things you were used to, in Pop and beyond.

Fade nerf was a minor inconvenience at most, once you adjusted to it you were still able to pull off some crazy

Played a bard, oh 6-7 times now on various servers and progressions servers. Never got into the swarm kiting as I play to group and raid.

Maxxed all skills including wind I cannot remember my last fizzle. I get a full resist on a lull once every 4-5 hours of steady pulling in groups. I can pretty much single pull any dungeon as if I want and CC almost all content except yes the very top end areas of the expansions.

Yes, on raids my job is to pull mobs to the group and then dutifully sing my resists and mana song so everyone else can do there job. Same job on raids I have ALWAYS had. Yes, I wish our personal melee and song damage is pretty weak. Oh well. I make that group of casters monsters with increased damage they can put out over time due to my presence.

Bards are the jack of all trade master of none. I love being a bard and what I bring to groups and my raid. We are not weak. We are just a different kind of amazing. If we got the thigs you seem to think we need, where would be the challenge?

lol

Having pulled named mobs across riftseekers solo to my group at entrance post nerf, I can assure you that the fade "nerf" did basically nothing.

Also @ OP - sounds like the bard class just isn't for you. You aren't supposed to be able to charm/mez as well as an ench. If you could, you would be strictly better. Yes, it does suck that for 6 months we can't mez half the mobs in the highest level camps, I'll give you that - but that's how it's always been.

And bards can still solo just fine, you just can't op solo giant swarms of mobs at once (which let's be honest, was overpowered af). Just equip a drum and 3x chant.

The "jack of all trades and master of none" is by definition weak. I'm getting really tired of that cliche. If this describes your career skills, you don't get paid much. You're a handyman or something.

And it doesn't apply to bards anyway. They are the master of resist buffs (yee ha). Later they will be masters at pulling, something actually worth playing them as a main for. And which, as Thott pointed out, is actually a form of CC, which is bard's primary core ability from the start.

Also this "you just need to be leeter at playing a bard like me" argument is getting quite old. Chanters are unquestionably the most powerful class in EQ currently and their overplayed status reflects this. They are also extremely difficult to play well. And by the way, a huge part of this "good versus bad" players comes from having raid gear.

Though I would like to hear about some of these leet strats people are referring to. Make these threads more productive, instead of just people arguing about whether a glass is half empty or half full.

The VG analogy was spot on. Bards were never meant to be able to do what you want them to do. Just because at one time they could, doesn't mean the game should go back to the way it was. It's called "class balancing" and it's been an issue for every MMORPG that has classes. There are many many many many more players than there are devs, and they find uses for things the devs never thought of. Thus, they break out the nerf bat. Do you honestly think a bard SHOULD be able to solo 100AAs an hour in pop, while most other classes struggle to kill light blues? Why would anyone play anything other than a bard?

NO ONE is a viable soloer on Phinny. It's the design of the game, and specifically the server. Complaining you can't do it well isn't a legit complaint. As an enchanter, I can solo extremely well, but it's risky. With xp the way it is, it's not nearly worth the risk, as group xp is about twice as fast. Even if I have to sit LFG, or form my own, it's still better than solo. Other traditionally solo classes, like mage, wizzie and druid, are finding the same.

Last, but not least, you shouldn't be able to CC/mez anywhere near as well as an enchanter, because you can regen hps, run fast, wear plate, forage, do AE damage and a million other things an enchanter can't do. If a raid of 55s wants to try Gore, the first question the raid leader asks is, "how many bards do we have." If a mob has a DT, the first thing a raid leader asks is, "Which chanter is taking the DT?" If bards can CC and mez DPS as well as an enchanter, why would anyone want to play a worthless raid class that runs slow, gets shredded like tissue paper, has no hp regen, and has to work a lot harder to fade memories? Hell, you guys don't even have to twist anymore. So forgive me if I don't think Bards should be "like they used to."

Also these "you want to dot like a necro", "DPS like a rogue" (or chanter, snicker), "CC like a chanter", etc., are called false dichotomies. DPS is a number. That number can have a large range of values in an interval between the best and worst possible in EQ. If someone is unhappy with the current value it does not automatically imply they want the maximum, and to argue against the presumption that is what they want just wastes bandwidth. If bards are allowed to CC actual blue mobs that groups fight (as later game updates will eventually allow them) they still remain far inferior to chanter at CC for other reasons (lack of ae stun, lack of ae mez, cery short mez duration) while not being worthless at CC in many places. If bards can DPS as well as a freaking shaman or druid, they can still be far inferior to a true DPS class while not being the worst at it. Hell even chanters have dots, that people never even bother mentioning, that are comparable to bard DPS alone.

I agree swarm kiting was too much (as with all the classes' "swarming" exploits).

And the first thing a raid leader always asks is do we have enough tanks, enough healers, and enough DPS to kill this mob. Cherry picking certain raids is not a great way to use logic either. This is where the valuation of glass-fullness-vs-emptiness game comes in. I see people vote with their feet and a hell of a lot more chanters than bards on the TLP's. Especially as mains. I'm quite sure increasing the max level of bard mez or doubling the damage of their dots won't change that either.

I currently play an Enc on Phinny though historically I have always played as a Bard.

I don't think this really holds up. As someone who used to play Bard religiously, including RF, I think that bards should mez better in the early eras of the game. I also don't recall needing an Enc to mez a mob for me PoP+. So at some point the game designers thought "Bards should be able to mez the same level mobs as an Enc." I think we even get an added mez at some point in the future to bridge the gap in early eras. So they also thought "Bards should be able to mez better at lower levels also."
Here they are:
Level 40 Bard gets Sionachie's Dreams (mez up to level 53), 2 levels less than Enc
Level 58 Bard gets Dreams of Ayonae (mez up to level 57). Same as Enchanter mez, no?
Edit: Forgot that Enc gets Rapture which goes to 61. So still no fear of being replaced.

Another thing, Bard mez lasts ~3ticks, Enc mez lasts 10-20ticks depending on the mez used. So even if a level 60 bard could mez level 57mobs they would still not be "anywhere near as well."

Why an Enc would argue against Bards getting better CC is beyond me since a) Bards are a support class, if a bard can mez a level 57 raid mob before an Enc can, then that leaves the Enc free to Tash -> Mez and keep it locked down safely. The initial bard mez is just to make sure the Enc doesn't go down before they get the mobs locked down (you'll be thanking your bards in PoP+ for this). b) It happens eventually anyway.

Edit2: It's not just so the Enc doesn't go down. Pre-mezzing is also useful so healers/other squishy classes are safe until an Enc can get the mob locked down.~

All I was really striving for was one thing though.

A higher level on CC would be sufficient to make them feel more viable in a group environment. The CC still isn't nearly as good as an enchanter CC. If you are CCing more than a couple of mobs, you can't even twist more songs in or still do DPS since the CC is such a short duration. Enchanter CC would still be much better.

As for Charm,
Than you don't add the upped CC. The bard charm like it was in the old days makes it so you can't twist any more songs so all you bring into a group is a charm pet. It would still make them worse than a charming druid or charming necro who both bring extra nukes, CC, or heals into the group while they have a charmed pet.

Neither change would make a bard more powered but it would rather make a bard more viable in the group environment.

I am well aware that later on with fade, the bad is the premiere puller and I am well aware that the bard is highly desired in the raiding environment but plenty of classes are required in raids and stand out in raids.

Great post. Also wanted to point out that enchanters can Mez level 57 mobs starting at level 54 so even if bard got that mez at 58, it still doesn't change anything about enchanters.

Also, if you look at level 60+ bard mez spells, they get a new mez every few levels and can always mez mobs 3-4 levels higher than their current level. It kind of tells you that there was a gap to be filled and SOE fixed the gap in later content.

Like they "fixed" druid heals going from 800 to 4k in future xpacs? A good bard is always welcome in groups AND in EVERY raid. There needs to be no changes to the class. If you think they need to be "helped" you truly are a bard. No one that has any idea of how the game really works and isn't trying to exploit it thinks otherwise.