Test Update 02/10/16

u seem to ignore the fact that self healing exsists on demand might i add AND passivly thru aas. the fact that thos self heals gets improved by focuses, aas, then even more aas to make them crit, and then by more focuses the make them cast faster, then by more aas that makes it less linkey to get interupted. then by more aas to make them cost nothing randomly (gift of mana, yes u cant count of it relable but it dosent change the fact that it cuts down on mana cost for you)


regardless of all that now ur mitigation discs will stack with defensive proff (except gaurdian line) also you get that 5% increase mitigation from the SB aa. i whouldent had any issues with any of this if in return it killed your self healing (reduced it by 85% or more) to not overpower you in the group game(that thing thats is 95% of the entire game)

other then that im happy for knights go get more powerfull have more fun tank some raid bosses and be awsome

its not delegating when u simply cant do the work or understand it yurself

We tried. There is no way you guys honestly know what your doing at this point, its change stuff based on your whims at that time and see what happens. Then possibly adjust later but at that point the damage is done in many cases. Based on the state of the game in general lots are not waiting around anymore, enough is enough.

There is no way any smart design team or designer could remove mana burn for dots AND then think its a good idea to remove 50% of dot twincast at the same time before the mana burn impact is measured(especially after they just boosted nuke twincast recast time ahead of it and added more counters to it).

Oh and just for good measure we are going to take away some of your solo tools and group dps since you have been a to good a solo class since 1999 and have been the worst group dps class in game. Soon after nerfing your fade, main pet, pet aggro and mana regen tools.

Up next epic removal and linking of dots to totally destroy the class.

Call it posturing or insignificant but one long time account cancelled here and another tbd.

Perhaps I missed it, but is there a reason why Granitebark (RKII) is blocking EVERY permanent clicky I used to be able to maintain?

** actually, it seems like every permanent clicky is being blocked by just about everything else. FML

Silly necro! You think they're telling you to cancel your account. What they're really telling you to do is reroll as the only caster class that matters!

i defined B when i used it earlier in the thread (and in fact, later int he post you quoted); i am using B for damage Bonus. X was defined immediately prior to the part you quoted; i substituted X for 19*DI to save writing.

i'm not fundamentally changing anything; due to the arithmetical properties of multiplication, there is no fundamental difference between X( Y + WZ ) and XY + XWZ. as i said before, i agree that it would be illogical and inelegant for SPA 162 to be processed first -- i'm not arguing that point!

all i'm saying is that we can't prove, just by looking at max hits, which is processed first. after all, while it seems inconceivable that 162 would be processed first, when one considers what an arcane and convoluted mess the EQ melee-mechanics algorithms are, it doesn't seem like that much of a stretch that they would have chosen an inelegant and illogical implementation of the order of mitigation-SPA operations.

as far as ascii formulae looking bad, yes, my formulae are unattractive....but...so are yours...and mackal's...and those of anyone else who chooses to post in-line ascii formulae here instead of providing links to mathbin or screenshots of LaTeX. give me a pass on that one; message board ascii formats are not conducive to in-line formulaic presentation of arithmetic, and it's not really legitimate to expect me to mathbin it up for a couple lines of simple multiplication.

...sigh.

please try to attend better to the language to which you are replying before offering non-sequitur arguments such at the quoted. in the very post you quoted, i made it clear that i was comparing mitigation abilities, since they are the only thing that can be straightforwardly compared without a lot of statistical testing.

the -1 DI penalty is not a warrior "ability". the post-softcap AC returns is not a warrior "ability". the slightly higher AC on warrior gear is not a warrior "ability".

the baton of highest melee-mitigation abilities (AAs, discs/spells) has been passed from WAR to knight.

as i granted, it is not currently possible to determine whether or not WAR will still outperform knights in tanking. i did not claim, therefore, that "the baton of total melee mitigation period has been passed". but in terms of abilities, WAR -- the parent tank archetype -- no longer hold the best mitigation abilties. that baton has been passed.

if you are contending that it is even possible to provide a certain proof at the level of mathematical logic of what an unknown algorithm is and is not actually doing behind the scenes, then it's time to hang it up and shut the front door, dear. obviously the word "proof" is not being used in the strictly rigorous sense of pure mathematical logic, and obviously any proof of that sort would have no place here at all (again: as though it were even conceivably possible to rigorously "prove" what precise formula an obscure algorithm uses, kek).

in fact, nobody is offering any "reconstructed formula" describing precisely how EQ's algorithm describes mitigation. all that was offered to you for your edification (pearls before swine, my god) was indisputable proof that SPA 168 only mitigates the DI portion of the hit.

to wit: we know that DP has a base1 value of 30; this value is provided in the spelldat. we also know what happens to a maxhit of X when DP is on; these data have been collected. we also know that EQ melee mechanics sequester a basic damage bonus from the d20 DI roll of incoming melee hits.

with these three pieces of information, there is no other conclusion than that the 30% melee mitigation of the defensive discipline only mitigates the DI portion of the hit, as can be seen from the fact that...defensive mitigates ~27% of a full hit, but 30% of the random component only.

i'm not making any assumptions other than the three pieces of information that i say we KNOW above. if you disagree that defensive has 30% mitigation base1 value, or that eq melee mechanics organise hits as DB + d20 * DI, then there is no reason to bother continuing to entertain you: you are being willfully ignorant. both of these "assumptions" are well-established and rather trivially testable.

i didn't construct, invent, or provide any formulae at all. all i provided were lines of arithmetic relying on the known fact that EQ melee mechanics organise hits as DB + d20 * DI. DB +d20 * DI is not an "assumption" i am trying to pass off as "proof", it is a "known characteristic of EQ melee mechanics".

or, we could not be idiots and learn how third-grade arithmetic works. i've made my choice; it appears increasing clear that you intend to make the opposite.

actually, i'm using it exactly as people who "have knowledge of math" use it: to mean "up to a correction for". i'm sorry for your sake that you aren't part of the group of people who "have knowledge of math"; i am furthermore sorry for your sake that you are not part of the group of people who "know how to use a dictionary on the internet" (check definition 2, thxhun~).

dicho shield is a threshold rune that doesn't absorb anywhere near as much as the 451 effect on reaver's bargain, either per hit on raid-quality hits OR in terms of total damage absorbed. i'd rather have dicho than bargain, no doubt, and i also have bulwark, which is another 451 good for eating up a measly 100k, but they don't mitigate like bargain does.

dicho shield is great; it's one of the best prog spells in the new expac, IMO. but it does not mitigate at the level of RB, or even close to it, so if we are comparing 451's, then (unless you wanna count Bulwark for like 2 rounds of incoming melee) WAR still do not carry the highest mitigation discs (and even before this patch did not have the most extreme 451-mitigation disc).

stop comparing apples to oranges.

there is not a mathematician in the world who, provided with the spell data for defensive, the plethora of statistical data collected comparing maxhits under SPA 168 and maxhits with no mitigation, and the well-established fact that EQ mechanics utilise a DB + d20*DI structure for incoming melee would disagree that the mathematics presented in this thread demonstrate beyond any shadow of a doubt that SPA 168 mitigates the DI portion of the hit only.

in fact, there is no mathematician in the world who would assume the word " proof", as i have used it in this thread, was intended to mean "rigorous, axiomatised mathematical proof", since no such proof could possibly ever be presented for how parameter specifically interacts with an obscure algorithm.

the non-academic usage of the word "proof" is perfectly appropriate. from now on, tho, i'll spoon-feed you ridiculous weasel language like "demonstrates beyond the shadow of any reasonable doubt" rather than "proves"...god knows you don't need to be any more confused than you already are, after all.

Since people said I was wrong, Test Sixty Five parses attacking a warrior.

If I'm right that the warrior's innate mitigation bonus is the same as -5 SPA 168, here are the predicted numbers
152, 176, 200, 224, 248, 272, 296, 319, 343, 367, 391, 414, 438, 462, 487, 510, 534, 558, 582, 605

Actually parse http://i.imgur.com/8NzU3Fn.png

Damn, those numbers match the numbers I parsed for Knight's Sedulity!

So lets check Defensive disc, if it functions the same and stacks that's a whole 50% reduction!
Predictions: 141, 154, 166, 179, 192, 204, 217, 229, 242, 254, 267, 279, 292, 304, 317, 330, 342, 355, 367, 380

Parses: http://i.imgur.com/RS7HPV3.png

Now these numbers basically match -50 SPA 168. There are more things off by 1, but all that tells me is that my rounding is off, which I already mentioned. It could also be the difference in the way it works could cause the off by 1. Maybe a dev could give me a hint to improve my formula, but probably not

Let's not derail this thread.

Looking at major issues right now for the future of the Necro class. I would say that 50% of the necro's raid burn DPS was taken away with the manaburn changes. That is fine. I understand the reason. But, there was also another change to the Necro's best burn ability. Gift of Deathly Resolve also took about a 50% hit. It is probably closer to 40% because Flesh to Poison did not always proc.

Do you not understand how crippling this is to the class? You are setting them up to do only about 30% of what they could do on a burn. This will also impact sustain damage by quite a bit.

Why would any guild care to recruit necros? Why would any necro care to raid with how difficult it is to spellweave and have no results for it? We already take up too many debuff slots, preventing other classes from using their fluff spells.

The big reason this is the last straw for so many necros I know is exactly what menown is talking about. People are just going to debate and knock these saying their class has the same issues or requirements but no class has all of these checks to perform.

• Necros require time to ramp up their dps on targets, outside of the absurd power that manaburn gave. They can't just start or stop dps at will at the levels other dps classes can.
• Necros have stacking issues and self regulate themselves in regards to recruitment due to debuff cap.
• Necros require 7 or more focus effects to maximize their output. More gear than other casters and melee if you think about it which with 1 or 2 weapons and pants and legs are 90% of the way there.
• Necros require adps support from 5 other classes to maximize their output. They have a much higher baseline without that adps then melee which suffer more when its missing but they still require that much to do what they do.
• Necros require more spells per expansion to perform than every other class.
• Necros require spells from 3 to 4 expansions back to perform.
• Necros have to so many hoops they go through to use the tools they have to perform. See hp threshold checks for Hand of Death, further ramp time added by Gift of Deathly Resolve because it requires nukes before proc'ing twincast counters for dots. Events blocking entire spell lines that really only impact necro dots and entire require spell line up changes. Numerous spells flagged to work in different manners for different manners ie swift dots not working on raids, corruption dots requiring plants, undead dots requiring undead mobs, doom dots requiring 2 or 3 minutes on a mob for their benefit, etc.
• Necros have to make 20 difference spell sets to cover raids. Live mobs, undead mobs, summoned mobs, immune to this mobs, trash mobs, don't use this raid mobs, multiple targets at once mobs. Same applies in group settings with lineups and order changing entirely based on how fast fights are happening.
• Necros have to constantly swap spell sets all while handling the normal mechanics of the raid.
• Necros have to adjust their burn sequence and cast order in real time for fights based on fight duration. Most classes do the same sequence of whatever no matter the fight length or circumstances yet for necros if a fight changes just a few ticks here or there, or if a certain phase suddenly starts creeping up faster or slower it requires a massive change in burn sequence, timing, dot order, dot timing.
• Necros biggest tools work in some places but not others. IE swift dots and swarm pets are the majority of a group necros dps and yet most of our burn tools don't amplify them.

Most of the people still playing this class love these factors as it makes the class fun. No matter how good you are there is always some area you can work to improve on be it raids, group, solo, timing, gearing, aa'ing, whatever. You basically can't get bored. And the class is a joy to try and master and in some regards their are multiple paths to follow that almost get you to the same result. No other class has that at least in regards to dps. So most of us wouldn't trade it or ever want the class dumbed down.

But why would anyone go through all this work when another class needs 2 focus effects, 4 spells, less adps and can spam a single key over and over while still getting the same or better results?

Wasn't ignoring anything. Someone was making an argument about one very specific facet of stats, and was incorrect about it.

Nothing was said (there, at least) about the overall tanking abilities of any classes.

I fully admit knights will be in a very good place after this.

I believe Wars will still be the best MT option for breaking into new content, based on the numbers.
I also believe that knights will be able to step up and fill gaps, and, when wars are not available, fully step into the MT role on raids, though not as reliably.

And I also believe that a well played knight will be better than a poorly played warrior, when it comes to the MT role. Which is NOT how it has been, but, i believe, how it should be.

The good wars, though? I don't expect them to have a single bit of trouble keeping the MT role.
Not the best geared, or highest AA'd wars. The ones who play with skill.

What do you expect. They cannot defend their position with math, so all they can do is shout out what they claim, and hope to obscure the actual lack of facts in the noise.

ooh so u mean like a poorly played knight is still better then a good played warrior in the solo/molo game. and a poorly played knight will be better in the group game due to better full package by a mile after the changes coms in to effect as ur getting both close to warrior mitigation in ALL content plus your self healing thats alreaddy great in the group game (thats 95% of the game). so not only will u be head over tails ahead in groupgame and solo/molo game but ur also within few % mitigation wise wile tanking raid bosses + your self healing both passive and active. the word your looking for isent strong its inbalanced.

knights love the word balance this aint balance not by a long shot

mitigation and is the warriors ONLY tool to survive.
mitigation+ self healing is how knights survive . and right now ur so close the warriors only survival tool and u have exceptional healing to boot (and by right now i mean when the changes comes in)

we all know they dont use test to test things they use live to do that as evidance of the expansions

like i said b4 i dont mind knight beeing able to tank raid bosses some bosses in the current expansion u can alreaddy tank with self healing and the mitigation pre patch (but gaining warrior like mitigation must come at the cost of self healing) but thease changes are way over board and u dont need math to tell u that

The good warriors are all here concerned do you think we all do that for no reason . Everyone of the warriors posting are being honest and have years of knowledge to tell them how terrible this is for our class.

While the knights are ignoring half their class. And 95% of the game . While also downplaying all that utility.

And if you think I am against the knights gaining power go look in that thread called where do the developers see sks and see where i suggested you get defensive proficiency at 15% and flash using dodge or block instead of parry . Just so you can't play that stupid card.

Knights are already tanking current raid bosses just as long as warriors there was no major balance issue to begin with. It just shows how out of touch the development team is with real in game situations.

And lastly in my opinion this is the worst change ever put into the game against the warrior class way above making our dps nothing when we started out as 20% higher than sks and 30% higher than paladins and stayed like that for 8 years while also losing one of our class defining abilities to tank better than anyone while wielding 2 swords.

Hmm... during those 8 years (and beyond) knights could, and did, MT raid bosses. Not once geared up. Not once it was on farm. Not just 'the easy ones.' Almost every single raid boss was knight tankable in previous content's gear. The best choice? No. Perfectly fine choice if you didn't have any wars around? Yes. And then just a few years ago, that changed.

Knights walked into VoA after having been able to tank HoT, and had a little trouble. RoF was almost entirely knight tankable, but things had worsened.

CotF was brutal for a RoF geared knight, except for a few events. TDS only increased the gap.

And finally TBM, where the gap has become absurd.

#1 absolutely not true knights were very limited in what they could tank up until pop they had to gear up first and required 20 % more healing at least.

#2 Voa was a tank killer for everyone having the most brutal spells of any expansion ever . Hot was one of the easiest expansions in recent history followed by Cotf and then Sod.

#3 Knights tanked all but WK2 and Tower of rot most of cotf was so simple rangers could tank it once appropriately geared.

#3 Knights were tanking in Tbs on most of the encounters when they were new. Tanking since underfoot has all been in the heal team and debuff support.

#4 Knights are tanking daily in TBM right now without even being fully geared.

#5 this excludes 95% of the rest of the game. (not even wanting to mention this I am sure ?)

Long time necro here. If these nerfs happen I am unsubbing. I know no one on these forums care and will most likely get hit with caustic yet witty replies but who cares. This is it for me.

No, actually I think there are few who wouldn't understand why Necros are upset (to say the very least).
These nerfs (apart from Manaburn working for DoTs) are totally unneccessary and uncalled for and will yet destroy another class' raid desirability.

Are you talking about the same CotF where warriors argued that they could not tank the bosses that magepets could tank all day long with both arms tied to the back and with the healer drunk and passed out in the lobby? You know, that CotF where the crusade against pet-tanking reached another all-time-high?

/sigh

Stop giving wizzys nice stuff if your just going to nerf it to being useless again!
Mana burn was a dirty word for years, and should have been left alone! Wizzys never asked for ADPS in fact they resisted it for years, so why it was done with TBM I will never know.

I hope with all the DPS reductions you are changing the raids with DPS checks to compensate.

Now your being picky!