Lockjaw Rotation Updated - 8/15/15

So no FFA but 30 minute window to kill target or it is FFA. Ensures that all targets go down quickly which maximizes number of spawns. Chances for everyone! yay!

I actually had a dialogue with Pinto_Bean about what you just posted. I think that would be a reasonable exchange with a 1 round lockout for the last kill to have won a FFA engagement against that particular target, except 30 minutes is far too short, because now we have moved from demanding 24/7 availability to 23.5/7 availability, which I think minimizes exposure to content more than maximizes it.

There is room for a happy medium in between. The further we move away from a 24 hour engagement window, the more I'd also want to see a forgiving policy for any rotation-removal policies concerning guilds that miss their engagement windows.

Okay then an hour if you cant kill a target within that time frame then FFA. The fact is everyone is punished if target is up to long. Less chances for everyone. If your rotation target spawns out of the time frame your guild is available does not mean others should be punished for it.

Guilds that killed target previously have a 2 hour lockout then permission to kill.

DBG hasnt fixed that nor do i think they will. So I think it is a necessary action to bring things down quickly.

Should also be considered X amount of failed attempts at targets should be removed from rotation. As they also affect the community as a whole

That's still a pretty stringent demand for availability, but with an extremely forgiving policy on rotation removal, a 1 or 2 turn lockout on the guild that previously won a FFA round on that target, and the otherwise removal of FFA, I find it to be a more reasonable suggestion than a lot of what I've seen on these forums. Maybe a 2 hour engagement window - we aren't really talking about mobilization here, remember, we're talking about whether guilds can actually log people into the game to begin with. I still think it's on the low side but that's how conversations begin anyway. See, I view the lockout as a two-sided blade, because you're really only increasing content availability for one or two other guilds, but compromises like this are the only way we can try to alleviate as much drama from both sides as possible.

Add to that some significant changes to how Plane of Sky is handled.

And also an open-minded dialogue on a decent Trakenon rotation system (though, as I've also previously said, I believe it is for the health of the server that initial Trakenon spawns must be subject to FFA).

Like I said, I think it's at least more reasonable than a lot of the alternative suggestions I've seen.

I think the biggest issue is ensuring targets get taken down in a timely fashion.
Using my guild as an example here because I do not think we have any illusions here.
Rotation target spawns middle of the night. Scheduled guild cannot muster raid force to take target down. Faceless has already taken down said target out of rotation for the last one but here we are again. 2 hours no other force has yet to take dragon down.
I would think you would want to allow faceless to take down that target in order to preserve respawn timers get set quickly.

I am just saying making the rotation schedule strict will ensure healthy spawn times. I think mobilization should be a factor to an extent. Maybe 2 hour window for non prime time window targets. and 1 hour for prime time targets. Guilds in rotation identify their prime time windows.

Aneuren,
Honestly I think the thing the 2 big guilds fear the most is that when the next expansion comes around, the rotation is going to stay like it was when the previous expansion ended.
For example if, at the end of classic, the rotation was 11:1 FFA with 24 hour engage timers, who is to say that the rotation will not stay that way moving into the new expansion?

That is why I asked all guild leaders to come up with some sort of proposal of what they think the progression of a server should be like and I hope this is brought up in their meeting tonight because it is important.
If all guild leaders can agree upon a general progression of a rotation through the expansions than I think the arguing over this little stuff will end. I think if the leaders agreed that the rest of classic should have no FFA so long as Kunark started with 1 month of FFA than got progressively less and less FFA as the expansion progressed and more guilds were capable, the leadership and members would accept any restrictive changes to the rotation in a heartbeat!

The thing that is killing you guys on Lockjaw is the unknown! Ragefire doesn't have this unknown really. They have a rotation set up that will allow them to be a faster progression server yet it will also allow other guilds the access to the content too. The other guilds don't get as much access as guilds on lockjaw but, on a faster progression server, that is to be expected.

Warrior007,
Now that Kunark has been out for a week on Ragefire, before going into this meeting, do you have any thoughts on how you would like to see an expansion progress like I was asking before?

Now that you know Trak is on a short re-spawn timer and drops a metric -ton of keys.

Why is it an issue that the targets get taken down in a timely manner? We're not talking about them being up for weeks or days,we're talking hours or a day at the very most.

They spawn faster than ever before. Adding hours to how long until a raid mob is killed doesn't really make that big of a difference when its on accelerated spawning time. Yes, everyone wants as many targets as possible, but at the same time the vast majority in the rotation seem to also want to kill on their own schedule and not wake up at 3am.

It may not optimize the loot available, but it does make the server healthier and guilds happier when they don't have to bend over backwards for the "optimum number of spawn times."

When the spawn time of a mob is 24 hours + window and it takes about 12-18 hours to kill something, you are just adding a significant time to the rotation.

This is the very reason that it is more lucrative for AD and MM (that is why Warrior007 had suggested it). Short kill timers with as few rotated FFA as possible means they get more kills assigned to their guilds. This is, of course, at the harsh expense of all of the guilds that can't dawn a force on to kill these targets in the middle of the night or work day.

The top guild actually benefits more from the MM suggested rotation more than it does the current rotation (because many guilds would miss rotation mobs turning their mobs into FFA) but the top guild ultimately chose a rotation that both benefited them plus the majority of the guilds in the rotation.

A spawn time of 24 hours + window is still faster than what it used to be, by a long shot. Maximize the spawn/kill rate...maybe you get an extra target a week. Great, 4 more people a week get some loot. Those 4 people are a lot more important than accommodating the schedule of multiple guilds who choose to kill at set raiding times rather than wake up at 3am? I personally don't think so. The spawn/kill time is still far faster than what it used to be, and there are far less wipes than there used to be back in the day.

I could never back this idea, 11:1, there is not competition in there, Faceless wins FFA because they are the bulk and prepared, good on them. This also doesn't allow unguilded to band together and contest FFA's, i don't see why they don't do it now, tbh.

The window can be reduced, but that does not help the casual raiding guilds, and that is what i represent in FO - We are only classed as casual because we can't log on 24/7 like the hardcore guilds.

I think you may need to read up on raid target spawn rates unless you mean the length of time it takes a guild to kill a rotation target (from inital attempt to death) which is irrelevant in the current discussion really.

I would take the position that if your rotation target spawns outside of your guilds availability. (current rotation) waiting 12 hours for you to gather enough force to kill it means that you have just added a huge amount of time to everyone else is next target including your next one.

And the FFA statistics and the way some of you are talking about them are not being looked it the right way. How many of those targets if not killed by Faceless would have been up for 6-18 hours before brought down? I would venture to say quite a few of them.

So you say the current system is flawed and I say that without us taking those targets down the rest of the community would have suffered even more so than losing out on opportunities that you weren't available for. The game is flawed you cant fix it using the rotation.

However accepting the flaws in the game and agreeing that targets being taken down quickly and identifying a schedule that will ensure that happens will benefit everyone as a community.

Not to mention that the suggestion you make serves the purpose of getting the guild with 95% FFA target kills --- even more kills. Also make no mistake, those targets would not have stayed up as long as you might think.

That doesn't help the casual raiding guilds.

Start competing against them, this game has become to baby caked and everyone wants a free bag of lollies without the effort, where is the competition gone, if they win the FFA they deserve it. If they keep winning, so be it.

You would think after 93 pages, dbg would just instance content and get this charade over with.

Hey mid-tier player, in a mid-tier guild.

I do NOT want more kills if it costs guilds their rotation mobs.

Why do YOU want to take their mobs to feed my guild? Why do YOU want to screw other guilds out of kills and loot?

Why are YOU suggesting we make it impossible for the smaller/casual guilds to get the loot they're on rotation to get?

If YOU want more loot and I'm 100% positive that's all YOU really want here, then mass up and go for FFA targets. Just like Peace of Formosa Ex did this morning.

Stop trying to take loot away from other guilds to feed yourself. Start trying to win FFA to get more loot. That's the ENTIRE purpose of FFA.

Something missing in the talk about competing. Ever think that many of us raid because we like to? I haven't seen a piece of loot in well over 2 months yet I still show up to every raid just because I like to raid.

I am sure I am not the only one. If we had need of the gear perhaps we would be more willing to compete, but I like to do a cost/benefit analysis for many things I do in life.

Competing for loot I don't need is all cost and no benefit.

FI clearly needs the loot (loot is a good handicap for lack of skill). I could show up with a newbie robe and a fine steel dagger and still outplay anyone on this server.

What I am saying is that we get up at all hours of the night to kill a dragon and that somehow makes us the greedy, monopolizing, bastards. If we have a rotation managed by identified prime times like on RF would ensure healthy timers on respawn. I think it is in poor form to say that a rotation is flawed if we are dominating FFA's of that 95% FFA targets how many were in prime time hours.

And I assure you that its not something any of us our excited to do or for those few poor souls that stay up with track window on while everyone else is sleeping. I mean its almost like your saying that we are doing to the detriment of you.

I don't even know what that means we have had several 6-18 hour windows where a rotation mob was not killed. That has major affect on the rotation and the communities ability to see targets.

To be fair, I think LJ only ever had the one, RF did have like 3-4 different ones for a while.