While button reduction is a priority for Dzarn, arbitrarily chosen spell reduction is a priority for Aristo. So probably not.
The exact restrictions to trigger Somnolence will be: Minimum spell level 65 Maximum spell level 253 Spell is detrimental Spell costs at least 10 mana Spell uses SPA 4 (strength) The combination spell meets these criteria.
The fact he both responded in the class forums, and actually talked about our concerns and propositions and included his own proposed solution! He just let a puppy (us) lick the icecream (gave us reason to really really like him to the point of extreme annoyance with our needy puppy-dog eyes)! Seriously appreciated. I may be making more suggestions directly now (for you to take or leave, no expectations for implementation).
This made me LOLOL because of how true (and sad) it is... although, spell reduction would probably be fine if it followed any logical pattern of sense for worthless spells. That mostly applies to other classes rather than Enchanters though outside of the Cripple fiasco. Seriously though, this is pretty amazing. I'd much rather have a guaranteed proc with a hit of a spell I already cast regularly than use a super cheez method of spamming a broken ability. Button reduction indeed... now I can take Stasis off my bar!
I think everyone feels it, it's just very linear lately. When was the last time we used a real charm pet on raids. You know, a trash mob you grab yourself and that is your responsibility from then on. Or the fact that all raids are in the same zone...feels like just being thrown in there, with no decisions to make from then on. Or that item names all look like latin lessons...that you feel like gearing up is just one big circle, in 1 year minimum you want to replace everything anyway. That you suspect the next farm circle is just 1 expansion away. I'm just tired when i think about all this, kinda makes me want to rest. Which is what i will prolly do, all good things come to an end. I always had hopes it would get more creative again.
I find it really interesting that this wonderful change to keep cripple "incentivized" comes out with drop in this expansion with a warrior belt that procs Cripple (the second version of one announced in RoF or Coth), another farmed out enchanter ability. The "incentive" to use Cripple is apparently not so important to developers that we should get an upgrade since level 91, Slivered Consciousness. All of the "Detrimental, Disempowering" spells since then are slows with Cripple, which are also listed as "Slows." Cripple is apparently not important enough to give us a useful, let alone upgraded, Cripple AA.. Deep Sleep Malaise has never been a reason to not use Cripple. Ever. What we effectively have is a much reduced chance of landing, and keeping, Deep Sleep on a mob, and now, only one that can't be mez'd. Mez'd mobs don't really need Deep Sleep, and maybe it wasn't intended that we get a useful debuff on high damage raid mobs that can't be mez'd, charmed or stunned. A proc that lasted all of two minutes. Some enchanters don't even bother to try and land Deep Sleep because of that Deep Sleep's Malaise rarely proc'd. At 70% for two minutes I can see dropping it entirely because it blocked Shaman slows, if it did, which I doubt. It would not have blocked our Cripple line but if it did I never noticed since it rarely proc'd or landed. . We already have plenty of reason to be casting Cripple and it's always on the raid line-up. So why do we need a further incentive by nerfing out Deep Sleep instead of just taking out that Malaise proc? I doubt any of us would have missed it. Our Crippling Aurora is also no "incentive." Deep Sleep This ability gives you an innate chance to put an NPC into a deep sleep when you mesmerize it. An NPC under the effects of a deep sleep will suffer offensive penalties for 2 minutes after the spell was initially cast. Additional ranks increase the effectiveness of the ability and the chance for it to occur. Deep Sleep VIII Description 1: Decrease Chance to Hit by 24% with All Skills 2: Add effect: Deep Sleep's Malaise Deep Sleep Malaise Reduces melee speed by up to 70 percent for up to 2.0 mins. What this change actually does is take away the ability to proc that Deep Sleep effectively on a raid where every single debuff is needed, for a slow that was equivalent to a shaman slow that might proc, and would last only 2 minutes. But wait..let's look at the Decrease Chance to Hit by 24% with All Skills. All Skills? Let's look at the basic Cripple line: Cripple SHM/53 ENC/531: 1, Decrease DEX by 6 (L53) to 110 (L101) 2: Decrease AGI by 16 (L53) to 130 (L101) 3: Decrease STR by 16 (L53) to 130 (L101) 4: Decrease AC by 15 (L53) to 60 (L101) While I admit I'm not very good at the mechanics/numbers behind most of the game, that Cripple line looks a lot like Deep Sleep, which stacked for two minutes on top of the Cripple we already cast. incentivize? Why not the other explanation we got for nerfing a level 85, four expansion old AA, Mental Contortion at 100. It was just plain "too efficient." You broke the on-demand for Deep Sleep making sure that Deep Sleep only proc'd on unmezzable mobs. That makes it useless. Changing the line so that it won't land on anything but mezzable mobs, which are by definition not doing damage if they're mez'd and therefore 100% slowed. Why not just flat out say we nerfed the enchanter abilities yet again just because we can, instead of trying to make it sound like you're giving us something while taking things away? Stasis was only marginally useful for landing Deep Sleep because of its fast refresh. It got moved to a secondary Hot Button bar because of that. I always have mez spells up and there are far better AA that we still have left to put in its place.
The cool-down on Stasis is now 5 minutes, but if you can't proc Deep Sleep on a raid mob that can't be mez's it's marginally useful. I moved it to a secondary hot bar for times when I want a single mob to stay mez'd longer (3 minutes). But yeah, we got screwed again. Even with the proposed change of proc'ing with Cripple unless they plan on giving us an upgrade, the highest now is 91, and an actually useful AOE cripple.
Most of this is relatively good news, but there's that same problem again. You could have solved this with probably no complaints at all if you'd simply dropped Deep Sleep Malaise. What I can not believe is this statement: Each rank of "Somnolence" is an accuracy debuff equal to each rank of "Deep Sleep" but won't trigger "Deep Sleep's Malaise" as to not invalidate the need to cast slow spells by casting cripple. Casting Cripple does not, in any way, invalidate the need to cast slow spells. Deep Sleep did not invalidate the need to cast Cripple. Deep Sleep Malaise might have, although I rarely saw it proc with Deep Sleep. Be that as it may, there's a bigger issue here, it demonstrates the lack of understanding of our spells and AA by not one, but two developers. Enchanters (and Shamans) have two lines of "Disempowering" spells, Slows and Cripples. Including the Slows in with the Cripples on the Spell Gem menu is somewhat confusing but it's not that hard to sort out. Enchanters cast Cripple because SHAMANS cast a higher percentage ATK reduction slow. IF there is no Shaman casting that Slow, we use SLOW, which has the Cripple component incorporated into it. SLOW is never on a raid spell set, again, because Shamans have a higher percentage slow and AOE slows, unless there's no Shaman on for the raid. There's almost always enough Shaman to be slowing, although it's not unusual for high end guilds to be using Enc bots because of a lack of Enchanters that are stubborn enough to stick with the class. In a group without a Shaman I would have Slow up instead of Cripple...in fact I have two group spell sets that are identical except one has Cripple the other Slow. We have Bard slows, Beastlord slows and even Necro slows (and maybe a few I've missed), all of which supposedly would be replaced by an Enchanter slow if there wasn't a Shaman. In a melee group there is usually a Shaman because they have an extensive line of melee buffs, and a higher slow is deemed more useful than Cripple (and the Shamans have a lower level of that too). Of course Cripple must be of some interest, at least to Warriors, or the Developers wouldn't have added Items with Cripple procs, would they? There is no need to "incentivize" Cripple. Deep Sleep on unmezzable mobs was extremely useful and asked for by melee and raid leaders since it was included in the game. They weren't exactly a part of the ADPS we seem to have been redefined as, but they sure as heck were more useful to other classes than to us individually for soloing.
Our last Cripple upgrade was at 96, not 91. It's also *minorly* inferior to the upgraded Helix. Cripple would be cast on every single raid mob anyhow- now, we can cast a spell we were casting anyway and get a guaranteed Deep Sleep.This includes mobs that are not mezzable. Exactly how did we get screwed? Also, the cripple proc belt is insanely inferior to our spell line that it shouldn't even be mentioned.
I think you're maybe seriously mis-evaluating these abilities, Jordis. Deep Sleep / Somnolence has value. Slow has value. Cripple has value. All these things are true regardless of which of the other effects is affecting a mob. The old situation was that a bug let you abuse Stasis to get Deep Sleep on anything by using a separate ability from the other things you cast (slow or cripple). You still slowed things if they weren't slowed, and crippled them if they weren't crippled. The new situation will be that you can get Deep Sleep / Somnolence on anything, by either mezzing it (just like before) or by crippling it. That's it, that's the change: Deep Sleep (called Somnolence) doesn't take another button to put on mobs. There's the bit about not proccing slow, but that's whatever since casting cripple always goes with clicking the Desolate Deeds AA anyhow.
Yeah, I saw the reduced recast time well after I posted, but even at 5 minutes, all this really means is that I can put a really nice AC debuff (-3580 AC? 3850? something like that) on any mob that can be mezzed. Well, mobs that can be mezzed don't typically need an AC debuff, so I'm not sure why I'd be compelled to use it. I mean, I'm sure there's a scenario, and I never assume anything is worthless, but there;'s a level of worth/value below which the spell/ability doesn't get used much, if at all. What I'd like some clarification on is Deep Sleep Malaise. It stacks with Slow. I'm doubt the actual percentage stacks, but the icons stack on the mob, so I don't know what percentage the mob is actually slowed with both on it, especially after mitigation. So am I to understand that the new and improved upcoming Deep Sleep lacks any slow component? I won't turn my nose up at an activated Deep Sleep, of course, but if that's the case, seems like we lost a little something there in the guise of whatever this is being sold as. I'm probably misunderstanding the whole thing, though.
I totally recognize the importance of those abilities and I really don't see how you could conclude that I didn't from the posts I've made in this thread. Enchanters cast their Cripple spells all the time if there is a higher level Slow. Our Slow overwrites our Cripple line. So we use our Slow or our Cripple as intended. There's no question that these are of value regardless of what else is affecting a mob. What I was saying, and you do not seem to see, is that we did not need any incentive to cast Cripple, it comes right after Tash in casting importance and order for every enchanter I know. The class that needs that incentive is the Shamans. Shamans rarely do anything with Cripple on raids other than their AOE Cripple AA. I wouldn't be surprised if the real thrust of these changes is to give the Shamans a Deep Sleep (Somnolence) AA to Shamans as well as Enchanters. What I’m really aggravated about is the demonstrated lack of understanding of some of the the most basic Enchanter roles by developers. It may have been a bug that Deep Sleep landed on mobs that weren’t mezzable, which would have been a reasonable explanation or even a not working as intended. Instead what we got was an explanation that it was to “incentivize” us to cast Cripple. Come on. [quote="Brohg, post: 3302756, member: 2545" The old situation was that a bug let you abuse Stasis to get Deep Sleep on anything by using a separate ability from the other things you cast (slow or cripple). You still slowed things if they weren't slowed, and crippled them if they weren't crippled. The new situation will be that you can get Deep Sleep / Somnolence on anything, by either mezzing it (just like before) or by crippling it. That's it, that's the change: Deep Sleep (called Somnolence) doesn't take another button to put on mobs.[/quote] What do you mean “a bug that let us abuse Stasis?” Stasis is a mez. Deep Sleep proc'd off mez spells. Are you saying that it’s a bug that Deep Sleep (a passive ability) proc’d off an AA mez? In case you hadn’t noticed, it doesn’t take ANY buttons to land a Deep Sleep. It just took a Mez spell. So now we will have a Cripple and a Mez to proc the passive ability. In case you missed the discussion on the other thread, it is the change from proc’ing with mez on unmezzable mobs with Deep Sleep landing even if Mez didn’t that is the big nerf. Really, really odd that at no time did anyone mention that it was supposed to only proc on mobs that were actually mesmerized as a reason for the change anywhere along the line. Not now or in the last three years or so. My comment was that Deep Sleep Malaise (a slow component) rarely proc'd off Deep Sleep (Ranks VI-VIII) would not be missed if it was dropped. The slow component is the only thing on Deep Sleep that has anything at all to do with Cripple. Casting cripple does not always go with Dreary Deeds (our AA/spell although it is odd that the spell is level 65 and you have to be 96 to get the AA) and Cripple except as a back-up. Dreary Deeds (AA/Spell) ENC/652: Decrease Attack Speed by 70% 3: Increase Disease Counter by 16, Duration 5 minutes. Slivered Consciousness ENC 91 Duration 7.5 minutes. Rk I, Rk. II, Rk III 1: Decrease DEX by 218, 229. 240 2: Decrease AGI by 218, 229, 240 3: Decrease STR by 218, 229, 240 4: Decrease AC by 90, 94. 99 5: Decrease Dual Wield by 0%, 13%, 14% Undermining Helix ENC 103, DURATION: 5 minutes Rk I, Rk. II, Rk. III 1: Increase Disease Counter by 24 2: Decrease Attack Speed by 70% 3: Decrease STR by 307,322. 338 4: Decrease AC by 126, 132, 339 5: Decrease DEX by 307, 322, 338 6: Decrease AGI by 307, 322, 338 7: Decrease Dual Wield by 17%, 18% 19% Casting Dreary Deeds (and other Slows with only a slow and disease counter addition) with our Cripple does NOT add up to the same benefits as our Slow (because Cripple spells and aa have not kept up with the level increases). What we have is not an incentive to cast Cripple and/or Dreary Deeds AA, but a situation where we have a much better "cripple" in a Slow spell we can't use if there is a Shaman casting slow. An upgrade to the Cripple spell line would bring that back in line. If you think that Cripple is important (which I would agree with) why don't we have an effective, upgraded Cripple spell or AA ?? Why no AOE Cripple spell or AA? For that matter, why don't we have an upgraded slow AA or an AOE Slow? A “Deep Sleep” proc of Cripple is great and somewhat makes up for the Deep Sleep mez nerf, but I’ll believe it when I actually see it. I’d bet that fix wasn’t at the request of, or because of enchanters being upset, but because of melee and healers that saw that damage mitigation nerf on raids.
.... Demolished Consciousness ENC / 96 1: Decrease DEX by 264, 277, 291 2: Decrease AGI by 264, 277, 291 3: Decrease STR by 264, 277, 291 4: Decrease AC by 109, 114, 120 5: Decrease Chance to Dual Wield by 15, 16, 17%
