I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, I was saying make sure everyone in your guild is pulling their weight. Not only is DPS important but ADPS is a completely separate monster. If you control the environment then you can identify where the improvement is needed. People like to look at tanking, healing and cc as reasons guilds fall short but dps is the biggest thing. DPS players take up almost 2/3 of a raid force. Imagine doing that raid in less than 2 minutes. How much less healing, tanking, emotes you would have to deal with. No need to get defensive. I would never say you cant play your class, I don't even know you. Now Cicely on the other hand.... mwahahaha... /evil grin /eyes Arwyn
That. With the obvious caveat that if your tanking, healing, or CC is so sub par that raiding is just not viable, it is very much a DPS centric game; the best defense is a good offense. The tanks, healers, and CC function is to keep the DPS (and aDPS) alive and able to beat the event. The longer events take, the greater the chance that probability catches up with you and your raid gets a string of bad events. You spend greater and greater proportions of the event functioning with lower yield or absent discs, or with greater and greater proportions of your raid force not functioning at 100%. Getting events done faster significantly decreases the amount of overall raid mechanics and damage output your raid needs to stand up against. Whatever the event throws at you matters far less when it gets obliterated in minutes.
Yea it's a dps centric game now, but that doesn't make it more interesting. For me as Chanter it's more appealing to find the right balance (and coordinate with Druids etc.) for my adps...things. That gets old too, sure but it provided longer fun than smashing the nuke multi-key.
I know I'm coming in at the end of this thread but flat out Wizards are decimating Rogues (2 top DPS performers in their respective sub classes). Parses shown here mirror what I see every Sunday, on all events that melee and caster can burn, and which fights last around the 2 to 5 min mark (Knifeplay allows us the disc duration to last that long), IE all of them, Wizards are in the 40 million+ area while Rogues are in the 20 million DMG area. Flat out, no intricate word use or conjecture. Wizards = 40 million while Rogues = 20 million Boss fights will no longer be "60 sec" due to the rediculous hit point pools brought on by our demented need for higher DPS, going all the way back to SOD where DPS was doubled overnight. Then you have all the other classes, DPS in their own right, like Monk, Bers, Mage bring up the rear as well for their respective sub classes (Melee and Caster). SOE/Daybreak should know about this unless they never have a data logger on while watching raids or during beta. If they don't it just shows a complete lack of understanding of how their game synergizes and should scare the living hell out of anyone playing in the competitive world of raiding.
RoguesOwn: It's not really just wiz vs rog though. Over a burn, the wiz are normally top for a while (sometimes it's rogs, but in my guild we have a lot of variability from the wiz). Restricting it to int casters for a while, it'll be wiz top, then maybe 2-3 min in necro start pulling ahead. By the end of say a 5 min burn you'll see nec > wiz (by maybe 25% or so? Nothing huge) > mag > enc with enc maybe being half of the wiz dps. There were also reports here from a mage of them being just a little behind the wiz. Basically, int casters are pretty well balanced vs each other. If you change one, it'll break. Trying to change them all and keep balance would seem rather "courageous". Melee however depend a lot on the duration. For the first 90sec say we're doing reasonably. Not always huge dps, but we're not bad. Sometimes I'm top for the first min, sometimes a berserker, sometimes a wiz (actually pretty much always a wiz if we get the right ones on, which implies they have the power to burn more than us). Frankly it doesn't seem so out of whack. Then it goes to hell in a handbasket. If it's a long single parse (as in my low-turnout vitio ones above) then the pure melee are on par with the bottom of the int-caster tree; ie enchanter. Does that mean enc is too strong? Lol nope! It means melee sustained is utter pants. If we get a good hybrid dps (ranger, beastlord) then they can be ahead of the rog and enc too. In summary, it's not the peak dps that is utterly broken, but the shape of the curve overall - sustained is just too weak on pure melee.
Not that I necessarily dispute this, but the Mage piercing DPS post had infinitely more data than the one sentence post you used to reach this conclusion...
I don't even count necros anymore. Their sustained is massive. Lets be honest, for the most part every fight now is sustained. I have been guilded with many a mage and one mage I know could go toe to toe with a wizard, just sucks I can not remember his name but I think he went to ROI a year or two ago. This DPS argument has gone on since the beginning and I know SOE and Daybreak have and will do what they think is best for the game. I can not feel though that they have really took a look at the overall picture. All it would take would to evaluate any raid in ARX and capture all damage and see how out of wack it is. They need to do something. Any raider out there that has paid attention to parses and how to pick them apart have to shake their heads at people on here that put there fingers in their ears and say LALALA, parsing isn't conclusive! Parses provide the average conclusion, and most raiders in end game guilds know that Wizards are decimating all. It's not that its a bad thing but when you have the other unadulterated melee DPS being beaten two fold that it causes issues. Rogue's have it worse in a sense as we are the only class that is position dependent. LOS is NOT an issue at all, but ask any rog when it gets clumped in a corner with its face staring back at you how they feel. BUT I digress. DMG is way off the deep end now. Adding a little here or there makes it even more so. But if they want to try something they need to look at "helping" the melee. Adjust some dmg calculations with weapons, as all melee DPS requires them and should feel they are contributing. Remove some of the requirements that every DPS group in a raid needs X and Y and always Z to do anything respectable. I doubt they care though, this game has run its course as power creep has shown, 1 mil+ caster crit or 400k+ BS's x2 or 3 anyone? I've expierienced every aspect this game offered dating back to 2000, problem is now I just don't care anymore. I log in 1 day a week to raid and thats pretty much it, until a new expac hits. This game still matters to me in some way but now it's just more of the same BS and I could care less, sadly.
From a recent late night parse: Xulous Prime in 99s, 235093k @2374673 --- Rogue + pets 37936k@(421515 in 90s) --- Rogue + pets 29924k@(321768 in 93s) --- Ranger 22042k@(297862 in 74s) --- Unknown + pets 15988k@(175688 in 91s) --- Unknown 15300k@(162770 in 94s) --- Wizard 14038k@(163229 in 86s) --- Mage + pets 13782k@(146617 in 94s) --- Wizard 11397k@(160523 in 71s) --- Mage + pets 8350k@(100604 in 83s) --- Beastlord + pets 7927k@(83437 in 95s) In order to get more sustained DPS, how much of that 421k DPS burn are you wiling to give up?
alot of that is assassination... u hit a low end on that parse just sayin as a rogue on dh1 if u got 3 or 4 rogues who are solid u can hit 700k and the mob last about 60s.. but looks like u only had 2 rogues and 1 ranger so yeah
Issue is the events suck. The majority of classes have various issues per event. Either adds or AEs or other things prevent a lot of competition. Thing is, you can not fix balance in this expansion. You fix it now and next campaign it will be horrendous. Need to see what the campaign has in store for us and get boosts during beta when hopefully we get a better overall set of raids that doesn't tailor to specific classes. My 2cp.
It was stated in beta that this would be a sustained expansion so that necros could have an expansion. Necros complained that they had little to no burst tools. We were then told by Elidroth that, "It is our [the devs] fault for making everything burst." Things should go back to normal in the upcoming campaign.
This is the part that gets me: If its a strength or niche type deal every class down plays it. If its a weakness or part time issue, not sure what you call a negative niche, type deal every class plays the world's tiniest fiddle for sympathy. There are changes to be made for some classes and some archetypes in general but not nearly as sweeping and drastic as some of the vocal mediocre players would have you believe. There are quite a few melee players, outside of zerkers, honestly who would have you believe their class is the worst thing ever at their job despite that being complete horseshit. In most cases what we see even when lots of data is presented that looks official and well thought out is in fact a average to poor player, that is poorly or partially supported, showing us a snippet from an event or parse that shows them at some disadvantage compared to others who don't have a disadvantage for that event or parse or that have much less of a disadvantage then other classes. They then claim its the end of the world as we know it. A prime example being the recent parses and claims I have seen related to Praetor Vitio as an accurate gauge of whats going on in game despite the fact that people are guessing how much his AC impacts stuff, they only know its less then other mobs, and that its parse is essentially a glorified Pallorax the Soul Slayer parse in that some classes can continue to roll out dps or are less impacted by moving around due to emotes. Never mind the duration. Never mind that in most cases casters now need just as much support and timing to throw up the big numbers in regards to support classes and timing of various support clicks with the big difference being that when thats missing or screwed up its less of a hit to the player. Meaning a caster might only lose 35% of his parse with poor or missing support bard, enchanter 1 or 2, druid 1 or 2, ranger 1, 2 or 3 compared to melee losing out on 50% or more at times by poor or missing support beast, shaman, zerker, ranger 1, 2 or 3. And when I say 1 or 2 I mean exactly that many guilds have started to use two of a support class to support one caster group for a bigger boost to guild. Once did I see a melee group get two shaman or two beasts in a group to support a sustained parse more. Not even sure its an equal comparison since they have to be in group but the point still remains the devs made it so in some cases caster groups can get double the duration of a support classes buff by using 2 of that class to support 1 group. That doesn't mean you then boost rogues or melee personal stuff up drastically ignoring that a lot of what is seen is smart caster and smart support players play. TL;DR Changes need to happen for sure but please don't do the normal pendulum swing to far back in the other direction outside of zerkers needing more love then others. I see a lot of complaints coming from a class that has the fastest refresh for full burn of any class, that has sick AE ability for the time being, that has sick bump to dps for lots of older content. Stuff that any other class would happily take in a heartbeat that gets swept under the carpet or ignored by some because they don't get to use it always. Stuff needs to be evened out in regards to catering to the different nature of classes but gone are the days of a guild needing 6-8 rogues and or 6-8 berserkers to be considered a good dps guild.
Congratulations on pointing out why parses can be completely useless! There are a lot of CoTF raids that can be Assassinated/Decap/HS now. And you just used one to try and "prove a point"?
Ok as you (nor I!) could be bothered to scroll up a few and find the actual quote, here it is: "Mage, on raids, I'm coming in right behind the wizards" https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/...-personal-dps-best.224698/page-5#post-3286169 Yes I don't have anything more to go on that that, but hey I'll trust it more than a fake piercing parse. lol.
You know as well as I do it's due to assassination, headshot and decap. For the record, I'd be happy if it was max level -10 instead of max level -5 if it meant that we'd get balanced properly instead... so about half of it
Nah, you want decapitation as the only restriction is level. Headshot and assassinate work on very few mobs (only humanoids, which actually isn't as many things as you'd expect). All 3 of them only add dps on old events; no real current content. Therefore they shouldn't ever be considered in current game balance. (But for what it's worth, I was suprised when they bumped the level so high and IMO thought it was a mistake.)
