Don't get me wrong, you guys (along with warriors) should have enough AE tools for aggro not to be a chore, I completely agree. But no, we don't self heal anywhere near as well as you do. Zombie epic is great every 12 minutes, but it's not a substitute for regular on demand self healing. SKs were in the pits for quite awhile with aggro, and we finally got back an advantage long enjoyed, so now pal immediately need it, too? Wouldn't have really commented if your 2 requests weren't what they *just* gave us. Many folks think the knight classes should be roughly equal (perfect example, remember that beta discussion about the TDS bp click? The sk one did damage and healed, the pal one only healed and folks posted saying that made no sense). If you want one of the only things that we excel at, I'd hope to at least self heal/cure equally with what a paladin can do, if playing the equality game (and not saying we should be, that's up to devs). If you want our advantages then I'd certainly like yours.
When they fix bond ignoring the cap on heals you can say you don't self as well as us until then the burst healing of bond + 1st spire + cataclysm is dawn insane. Especially due to the multiplicative nature of dot Crits multiplying the damage of the focus and anything that affects base damage and then multiplying that sum by 267%. Or haven't you noticed the huge heals from that spell? Let alone loading it on multiples. Big shocker something is broken in SK's favor.
A knight class/knight classes wanting a big piece of another classes defining ability? Unpossible! Feel free to get me wrong. An early knight vs. Warrior argument was that we are all intentionally flawed. Best survival/no at-will at range aggro - grats on being able to survive Warriors. Too bad you need 30 seconds to establish aggro. We're past that with devs and classes agreeing class advantage doesn't mean completing classes are totally inadequate? I don't think so. When some Warriors inquired about combat self-healing and it's impact on multi-mob tanking the response was not Warriors being able to put more HP's into their draining HP pool. It was limiting swarming. Warriors have limited combat self-healing but decent AE aggro? Paladins have good combat self-healing and poor AE aggro. It seems to me that Paladins got the best of that deal. Not the worst. Paladins (All of us) have a 5 charge AE clickie? Grats. Warriors (All of us) have a 1 charge res clickie. Not that, so I've been told 100's of times by Paladin acquaintances, Res has any value whatsoever. Aggro is going to be everyone's job? Oh well. As long as it actually IS everyone's job and no class is the golden haired child I don't see how we can kick. Beacon was reigned in. Some SK aggro advantage went by the wayside. Warriors got some at-range aggro improvement. Looks like a pretty even handed gamewide set of adjustments to me. In my experience so long as any advantages aren't extraordinary raid leaders and tanks themselves task according to in class character advantage and we all perform at our best that way.
Sheex, a Paladin does not self heal better than a Shadow in all situations. Shadows self heal better than paladins in many situations due to being able to control aggro far better and quicker in ALL situations. Due to this, much more time can often be alloted for the SK to heal self, while building even more aggro and doing damage. I fail to comprehend your stance
Broken isn't balanced, at some point they're going to fix bond, no? I can't imagine it was intended to heal us for each cast. The line was horrendously useless before TDS, and yes it's too good now, but I was assuming this was a bug to be fixed, not a permanent addition for class balancing. Both Knights need significant channeling improvements, either a lot more ranks of PC or some AA that makes us uninterruptible from movement like a bard is - that will help a lot with aggro and General effectiveness. And pal need a revert on beacon to make it a lot closer to where it was. And they need to revert voice of Thule back down to where it was, any kind of hate balance is basically impossible with its current form.
The multiple mobs part WAS intended the 70 to 90k worth of healing when it Crits with burns going was probably not.
Please post how you get a 70-90k, I was only able to get to 40k with burdon of truth focus, first spire, bard songs. I think 50k might be possible if you had chanter IoG, noone were logged on so i could test.
I already did RK3 bond First Spire + Cataclysm + Bard Done. All Dot Crit damage mods stack, and Cataclysm has one. So in theory you could Stack IOG, First Spire, Cataclysm, and have a bard in group. Also you need to have enough HP out of your HP bar for it to fill... If it would have/could have healed you for 90k but you only have 40k missing, its only going to register as 40k healing.
Ah thanks, I didnt think about that, that would throw it up to there. but i do still find it rediculous that you get stuck on one spell that you have to use expendible AA, and have half the group stacked to just do that, for one minute of every 10. Deceitful is much better for healing than that is in most circomstances if you have multiple in camp, and you dont have to stack the group to do it, but if you do, you can sustain it for a lot longer. I dont think they care that much about bond because of the recast time and it doesnt have the recourse that stick on you like it used to. They limited decietful by cast time (get to many on you and you cant cast it) and by the amount it can heal, its capped.
You can bond more then 1 mob as well. And how many Raids do you know of that only have 1 mob, or the fact in 90% of group content your pulling multiples? O 3 mobs? Deceitful Bond ... Touch Deceitful Bond Rinse repeat. And no you don't need half the group stacked, You just need a bard. Buts really not new that bards massively affect knight self healing, which is why you normally put one in a group with knights if they are MTing. that 24% increase to Chance to Crit Heals... Is pretty effing huge. It was even more huge when it was bugged and gave 100% chance to crit heals. Aria is also massive increase to Heals for an SK via the Damage increase. As far as Deceitful: Yeh the ability to permanently be able to tap 2 Targets (hello clockwork automaton!) is pretty powerful too. That seems more logically balanced then BOnd ignoring the 3800hp healed cap (unless i am misreading the spell parser?) I could care less if you SK's have self healing, but if you want to go "o well Paladins can't get AE aggro because we can't self heal" I am sorry that argument no longer holds water.
Where do you find a 3800 heal cap for bond? I haven't seen that in any of the spell parses. I know you can put bond on multiples, I find realistically I can keep it up on 3 in a high dps group, because they are dying to fast and I need to cast terrors in there to keep agro. I rarely ever cast single target life taps in fast paced groups because if there is enough in camp to have bond on multiples and cast deceitful, then I'm getting knocked around to much for the 1 second cast time to be able to get it off reliably. They have seriously upped mob push! I would personally love for pallies to get more AE agro, I feel sorry for the pallies I group with because of this. I am always stuck as the group tank with pallies in group because we can pull more and faster because of my ae agro. If I want to dps and let the pallies tank, we just bring them in and stack them up and take them down one at a time, this usually is about the same speed because we don't beam/ae them, and can produce enough single target dps to take them down in 30 seconds or less.
http://spells.eqresource.com/spells.php?id=43597 see where it says total? On a resource tap that is the intended cap. It was also in the beta notes for the spell.
Yeah see except...that's not what I was arguing. The very first line of my post was agreeing that in modern EQ all tanks need some form of ae aggro. Was trying to make a more general point in that asking for other classes' advantages is a slippery slope and not necessarily the best mindset for any of us. Said it when they went in, but the beacon change was too much, and Voice in it's current form is stupid. But you pretty much asked verbatim for the advantages that SKs got to "fix" a huge part of our uniqueness just a few weeks back (instant hate, more hate from single/ae's, and a hate mod). So my only observation was we can pretty much all play the "I want that" game. I don't expect to self heal, cure or be as generally useful to a group/raid as a Paladin is, and don't think ya'll should expect to have what little advantage of being an SK that exists currently.
Getting back to the original question, I haven't noticed any substantial changes to my ability to hold agro. This is speaking as a raid Warrior, primarily, with experience in raid-gear groups for missions/tasks/et cetera. There may very well be some problematic agro areas impacting group geared players and other tanking classes, but there hasn't been anything noticeable for me specifically. I can't speak beyond that.
Paladins asking for quicker/more reliable single target aggro(instant) isn't asking for a Shadowknight niche. Two of the three tanks have instant hate generated abilities/spells and both ''easily'' outpace paladins in single target aggro, a ''niche'' paladins held the #1 spot in for tanks throughout majority of EQ. Shadowknights have better self healing than paladins in quite a bit of ''tanking'' situations as has been more than pointed out, not sure why that would ever be thrown out there as an example as an SK except due to lack of knowledge or to spread misinformation purposely.
I'm not sure on that raven, looking at the max for slot 3 it is also set to 1048 on rk3. Maybe that is the unfocused max, or the base max, then focus kicks in. Probably something to do with their database to keep a double check on the amounts, but again, not sure. edit: I see Deceitful deflection has the max 15k in slot 3, I will try and see if I can test that tonight in the guild hall with bard + unholy aura+ first spire and see if i can get it to heal for more than that.
Bond isn't meant to have a cap. Its to smooth out between our longer recasts of 12.5s and 24s taps that aren't always guaranteed to crit and have a cast time of 1s. Deceitful Deflection heal is capped, but you can crit the damage done which means almost nothing in TDS. You're better off casting an actual tap over deceitful if you want a heal. That said, Paladins should get some AE aggro, and instant hate so long as it were hate only, as a trade off. If stuns were moved from .5 to 0.0 that'd be silly.
slot 2 on deceitful is the base damage. Slot 3 is the return of hp %. Slot 2: Decrease Current Hit Points by 4542 Slot 3: Return 85% of Damage as Hit Points - Total: 15443 per target edit: raven if you were talking about bond base dmg in slot 3 yes, I was referring to see if I could find a place that was a limiter or how that limiter worked, and since we know that deceitful has a limiter, I wanted to see if I could find how that was done, if it could be modded, and if bond was the same way.
I really wouldn't see an issue if the 100 stun was moved to instant cast, leave the others at .5 seconds. FoD is at .2 sec or near instant, and I never notice it get interrupted. Much of the pally arsonal is already fast cast, and I think it should remain that way, and since SK got instant dots, I would have no issues with an instant stun. If people don't want to see it because of kiting, hell let them have it, I hate playing nascar on raids. as for the deceitful vs regular lifetap, yes on a single or double pull, a regular/dire life tap >>>>>> deceitful, but once you hit 4+ the push is getting so bad its hard to channel a single life tap, so I have started using deflection more. Also a single life tap is going to do avg of about 30k healing, factoring crit/noncrit etc over time, where deceitful on 4 mobs is going to net you between 40-60k healing, and agro on all those mobs.
